Roland= no the rack is not dead! integra 7

[jimknopf]

this threads getting a little crazy but let me share a scenario with everyone, Ive been waiting to buy a nice workstation for a while, I've got about 4k to spend and its just waiting, I bought the Kronos then cancelled the order, the os is still the same mess as my old triton, rppr is a pain to work with. And the acoustic sounds are horrid on it. After hearing a jp80 I knew I wanted something that sounded as full and good as that. But I need an 88 weighted key action. So anyways, both companies have half-baked products, just korg at the moment gives you more with karma and key options, but the synths and acoustics arent even close to what Roland creates.
The Integra 7 has pretty much everything Im looking for except poly, a good live editor, and weighted keys. Its a pretty dumb product imo due to the fact that 90% of the functions have to be accessed using the buttons on the rack, so this means massive menu diving on a tiny little screen using up down keys...soooo dumb. They have an ipad app but it hardly controls anything for live use other than selecting stuff. If Roland put this into a 256 poly Keyboard with Roland action and added a Kronos/Fantom type interface that 4k I've been holding onto would be gone.
So ultimately I have to agree with Roland stuff being half-baked...it is. But so is korg stuff. Hopefully thats about to change.

Spend your 4k on whatever you want and as much fun as possible!
But as Kronos user I can't follow some of your Kronos comments at all.

The VA synth engines in the Kronos belong to the best I ever met in hardware, and in sharp contrast to the Roland stuff they deliver with very little aliasing and real high quality VA behavior. I like some of the classic Roland synth sounds as static background sounds, but they are far from having the Kronos engine quality and flexibility.

Concerning natural sounds it is just dead wrong to call the Kronos sounds "horrid" globally. The Kronos has definitely better high class pianos (and several of them), and in other areas it offers above average workstation sounds (see Busch's side by side comparison of the available brass sounds with Yamaha brass etc.).

Still, the JP-80 and Integra deliver some well playable and good sounding natural sounds, which all in all are superior to what the Kronos offers.

I don't know what your porblem with the Kronois RPPR functionality is: I had a Fantom G7 before and don't see anything it has ahead of the Kronos in this area.

Looking at the whole picture, with the incredible (re)sampling capabilities of the Kronos (with user streaming), superior pianos and EPs, much better B3 organ emulation, much better VA synth engines and Mod7, I would say that the present Roland products JP80 and Integra are about ten times as halfbaked as the Kronos is. From my view they are not even a challenge, apart from some well useable sounds.

[kanout]

Sorry..but when you say "much better VA"it's a question of taste.

I personnaly think the opposite of your propagandist point of view with my own sensibility(while i consider the very good quality of the kronos VA engine)

You dreamt everybody feel the kronos as the world champion like you,but musicians are too different for that!

[jimknopf]

kanout, in synth comparisons a lot is a matter of taste.
But there are plenty of other important criteria besides taste.

If you compare the available tweaking functionality (from the flexibility of the modulation matrix up to controller connectivity), the (importnant!) degree of anti-aliasing and other advanced VA features available in the three Kronos VAs (especially in AL-1 and the MS20, along with the more simple, but great sounding structure of the Polysix), the JP80 or Integra SN synth sounds seem to be more limited from a sound shaping VA perspective! At least that was my impression when I had a closer look at the JP-80 some months ago, even if I don't remember all the details any more.

You can have any taste you want and like the sound of your JP 80 as much as you like. I like some of it's sounds just as well. But I still regard the Kronos VA package as significantly more powerful and flexible due to it's features. Even my Access TI - which definitely has an advanced VA synth structure - does not let the Kronos VA package pale in comparison, and in some apsects the question could just as well be asked the other way round.

Anyway, that was not the main point of this thread, and there may be enough users who have limited awareness of and use for such advanced features, and are just happy with available, well useable sounds. That's understandable and fine with me.

Perhaps it helps you to know that even I would consider an Integra buy as additional sound source, if it had a from my view better overall OS concept. As it is now, I can't say that.

[kanout]

If you compare the available tweaking functionality (from the flexibility of the modulation matrix up to controller connectivity), the (importnant!) degree of anti-aliasing and other advanced VA features available in the three Kronos VAs (especially in AL-1 and the MS20, along with the more simple, but great sounding structure of the Polysix), the JP80 or Integra SN synth sounds seem to be more limited from a sound shaping VA perspective! At least that was my impression when I had a closer look at the JP-80 some months ago, even if I don't remember all the details any more.

You can have any taste you want and like the sound of your JP 80 as much as you like. I like some of it's sounds just as well. But I still regard the Kronos VA package as significantly more powerful and flexible due to it's features. Even my Access TI - which definitely has an advanced VA synth structure - does not let the Kronos VA package pale in comparison, and in some apsects the question could just as well be asked the other way round.

This is often a kronos argument considering parameters to determin what's the best.

This is a mathematical way to think,not music.
Do you consider a minimoog less interesting than a kronos because it hasless parameters?

I absolutly don't care about VA structure if it sounds good.
The VA structure don't determine the good or bad sounding.

If you put your finger on a keyboard,and play..do you analyse when you're playing the VA structure?
I'm in different logical.
When i'm playing a synth,i'm trying to forget the engine to feel naturally the expression.

I think we agree together about the advantage of the Integra 7 in association with the kronos:
They sound different!

But consider there isn't a universal best sound(the kronos like you say in all threads)but the sound who affect the most your sensibility.
I understand you if you feel the kronos like that,i feel the opposite.

[jimknopf]

To musicians who understand what they have, flexibility in shaping sounds is first of all a musical thing, not a mathematical. And technical things like low aliasing have a huge influence on the quality of a VA sound. As long as someone uses just some layered pads in the midrange in a static way, he/she won't notice much of that.

We can only agree to diagree here.

[kanout]

You can't analyse only the good sounding by aliasing.
The sound perception is a feel you have in a good or bad sense:
Roland feel warmer for me than the good kronos anti aliasing performance.

Play a big layer on the kronos or integra7 live,do you think listeners will think about the aliasing?

Here again,a tech specs way to think more than a keyboard player comparaison.

As a keyboard player,i love the kronos eps more than roland ep(in my j80 but the same in integra..)
....and as a keyboard player,i prefer so much the roland VA sounds than the kronos VA sounds.
It's not objective or subjective..it's my sensitive feeling.

The roland va engine is less parameters than the kronos engine,but maybe more efficient and clear for many keyboard players.

[jimknopf]

Play a big layer on the kronos or integra7 live,do you think listeners will think about the aliasing?

Play a "big layer"? One of the least important things for me as a keyboard player! Most of the time I leave air to breathe for the rest of the band (or recording keyboard arrangement), and I often perceive midrange heavy walls of sound from other bands as tasteless mud, killing the good sound of a band. There are only very limited situations where "big layers" really make much sense. I know that many keyboarders would like to sound as big as possible most of the time, but to me that is a childish wish not working well with most musical styles and contexts.

On the other hand, play a melody line or a synth solo with resonance and filter movements in the high range, and if you would still not perceive the difference between bad aliasing and low to zero aliasing, you would certainly miss something essential, which skilled keyboard players surely won't miss.
Even the listeners will perceive a synth as simply bad sounding with ugly aliasing during your melody or solo part in such situations (even if they have no clue about the reason).

Here again,a tech specs way to think more than a keyboard player comparaison.

You obviously have difficulties grasping the musical (!) aspects of synth specs in keyboard playing. Still you should be aware, that many keyboarders use such synth power in a creative musical way.

In the end, just use what you like.
What we discuss here are just different opinions on the musical implications of gear specs, nothing more and nothing less. I say what I think, but I'm very relaxed while doing so.

[kanout]

You can't analyse only the good sounding by aliasing.
The sound perception is a feel you have in a good or bad sense:
Roland feel warmer for me than the good kronos anti aliasing performance.

Play a big layer on the kronos or integra7 live,do you think listeners will think about the aliasing?

Here again,a tech specs way to think more than a keyboard player comparaison.

As a keyboard player,i love the kronos eps more than roland ep(in my j80 but the same in integra..)
....and as a keyboard player,i prefer so much the roland VA sounds than the kronos VA sounds.
It's not objective or subjective..it's my sensitive feeling.

The roland va engine is less parameters than the kronos engine,but maybe more efficient and clear for many keyboard players.

[jimknopf]

Double post AFTER my answer?

How that?

[kanout]

Hoops,sorry for the double post.

I agree for what you say about big layer,it was just an simple exemple,maybe not the best.

As a live keyboard player(with different bands),i often programmîng a straight calibration to take the just place in the mix without disturbing the other instrument's frequence.

Bu the kronos and the integra are able to do that without problem