M3 or Motif XS ?

[billysynth1]

lol @

But Yamaha *is* making an effort to catch up...

Billy

[ReIgnition]

Any reason why Korg is releasing the M3 (June/July) so much later than the XS (April) ?

Because that's when it will be ready and produced. "We shall release no wine before it's time..."

Stephen, how come you didn't give us a link to this vid.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4032#

really cool !

I'm so confused...

June !, June !, come on.

I'm still going to get Radias this month and go from there.

[StephenKay]

Stephen, how come you didn't give us a link to this vid.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4032#

I did, over on my forums:

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthre ... eadid=8605

I didn't get around to doing it here, but I will.

[bkboy]

lol @
Quote:
But Yamaha *is* making an effort to catch up...

I don't think its funny billyboy, and i disagree with the way the higher people of respective companies feud with each other (eg: stephen kay vs dave polich)...i know its all competition, but to tell you the truth, the yamaha's arps were unbeatable in the acoustic department, i never got to use any usable acoustic arp from my triton....

mr kay, the karma is great, however, i use it solely for electronic music, and it works well....

i think instead of this rivalry between yamaha and korg, why not consider that yamaha has korg shares and many vlsi chips inside korg atleast used to be yamahas, if not now.......

from what i see, both yamaha and korg are pioneers...

yamaha developed 1st fm and modeling synth (they materialized it from stanford research papers), and korg made the 1st workstation and the ge engine from mr kay's karma....

you all (stephen, dave, etc) are bright people, and i don't expect you to fight over these silly things over what a reviewer wrote (he wrote his opinion thats all).....

what i can guarantee you will be that i will buy both the M3 and the XS...its simply stupid to have one over the other, because they both excel at unique things (unless money is an issue, for me its not atleast for now)....

[StephenKay]

mr kay, the karma is great, however, i use it solely for electronic music, and it works well....

Well, thank you, but that may be your choice, I've heard plenty of absolutely believable acoustic music come out of it. You should just listen to some of the entries in our past KARMA Kompetitions at Karma-Lab.

you all (stephen, dave, etc) are bright people, and i don't expect you to fight over these silly things over what a reviewer wrote (he wrote his opinion thats all)......

That's a nice "happy thought", but in reality, the internet is a battlefield.

I wouldn't call it fighting. I merely pointed out that, while calling the reviewer an "amateur" (I guess because he seemed to like the M3 better), he inserted an unknowledgable comment about KARMA that actually wasn't necessary, and didn't make sense.

It's a shame, really - I went over to motifator today to check things out, and the amount of misinformation about the M3 I see being bandied about, seemingly even by Yamaha employees, made me want to join up and correct it - very welcome I'm sure *that* would be.

[bkboy]

thanks mr stephen,

its a delight to hear from high minds like you yet you are so humble, that really shows what a great person you are

i love karma, however, korg's acoustic waveforms seem a little weak.....i should try using the karma with motif xs (thru midi)...

as far as electronic sounds, korg rocks, also because of ge effects as they really make those evolving sounds possible....

as far as yamaha employees, i think only dave polich gave some misinformation - regarding karma, the others were just owners/fans of yamaha stuff.

i think karma is unique due to so much algorithm processing at once, its a shame that the m3 is released only in july. however, i look forward to seeing your videos and learning more - i only think its good karma

its just hard to own only 1 out of the big 3 - y/r/k..................i need all 3 of them

[ReIgnition]

Any reason why Korg is releasing the M3 (June/July) so much later than the XS (April) ?

Because that's when it will be ready and produced. "We shall release no wine before it's time..."

I noticed this on the it-review net site...

As for the 73-key and 88-key version, the current timeframe for them is late summer-early autumn (so, realistically, I guess we're talking September).

!Noooooooooooooooooooooo

Tell me these are padded estimations to cover possible technical difficulties, but that it is possible for all three models to show up in the spring early summer.

[mtps]

With regard to what you say that the MOTIF has better acoustic sounds. Try to record a acoustic instrument via microphone to you see how it is really his sound. Afterwards you will occupy how many far from the reality is MOTIF in the acoustic sounds.

Not you are impressed.

[Lorenzo]

I do it every day, I'm an audio technician and work for an auditorium here in my city... and yes an acoustic instruments sounds far different from any synth in commerce, but es come closer than my triton and my kurzweil... maybe some moss sounds are a little close to the real thing but es is the way to go if you like acoustic sounds.

[vEddY]

I wouldn't call it fighting. I merely pointed out that, while calling the reviewer an "amateur" (I guess because he seemed to like the M3 better), he inserted an unknowledgable comment about KARMA that actually wasn't necessary, and didn't make sense.
It's a shame, really - I went over to motifator today to check things out, and the amount of misinformation about the M3 I see being bandied about, seemingly even by Yamaha employees, made me want to join up and correct it - very welcome I'm sure *that* would be.

You know what's very sad here?. The sad fact is that I don't see us spitting on Yamaha's products here at this forum, like, EVER. Maybe I missed some, but I don't think we're in that business - all of the members. What I CAN be pretty categorical about is this - KORG employees that come to KorgForums didn't say a single bad word about Yamaha, to my knowledge.
Now, let me be a journalist for a second, while trying to be as objective as I can be. They're bigger, they have more money, but they're BEHIND. And that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like Yamaha, or Kurzweil, or Roland to offer a product that could compete with the OASYS, because I surely would. I'm just writing the column about these strange things on my website. I mean, this thing reminds me of AMD/Intel fight 'til Core 2 Duo was introduced last year...

[vEddY]

!Noooooooooooooooooooooo
Tell me these are padded estimations to cover possible technical difficulties, but that it is possible for all three models to show up in the spring early summer.

I'm not into business of "estimations", unless they're directly made by employees of the company whose product I write about. And I specifically asked (in this case) Jerry face to face if he has a problem with me writing that. Because I wouldn't publish that if he had, since I don't do rumours.

So, to conclude, these estimations are pretty much true. 61-key model in June, 73 and 88 in July-August, with September being a sure bet. But hey, guess what - I really thing M3 kicks some serious a**. Perfect "affordable" workstation, with good balance between price and sounds/possibilities.

[Gammaray]

I wouldn't call it fighting. I merely pointed out that, while calling the reviewer an "amateur" (I guess because he seemed to like the M3 better), he inserted an unknowledgable comment about KARMA that actually wasn't necessary, and didn't make sense.
It's a shame, really - I went over to motifator today to check things out, and the amount of misinformation about the M3 I see being bandied about, seemingly even by Yamaha employees, made me want to join up and correct it - very welcome I'm sure *that* would be.

You know what's very sad here?. The sad fact is that I don't see us spitting on Yamaha's products here at this forum, like, EVER. Maybe I missed some, but I don't think we're in that business - all of the members. What I CAN be pretty categorical about is this - KORG employees that come to KorgForums didn't say a single bad word about Yamaha, to my knowledge.
Now, let me be a journalist for a second, while trying to be as objective as I can be. They're bigger, they have more money, but they're BEHIND.

Behind in some things but better in some others. XS is as much desirable as M3 is - even an old FantomX has its merits. After looking at specs they are quite balanced among these new workstation.

What is refreshing about M3 is the standalone version - it's a first time from a long time since a keyboardless version of workstation didn't get crippled in some way.

If I have to spend lots of money and start from a scratch I'd get XS, M3-m and FantomXR loaded with SRX cards.

And for some boasting about their own products and trying to show a competition's ones in a worse light isn't called a marketing?

And that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like Yamaha, or Kurzweil, or Roland to offer a product that could compete with the OASYS, because I surely would. I'm just writing the column about these strange things on my website. I mean, this thing reminds me of AMD/Intel fight 'til Core 2 Duo was introduced last year...

Yamaha had been having something similar conceptually to Oasys in EX series. It get replaced by Motif instead of being updated. There were Kawai K5000, FS1r, Creamware Noah or even totally flexible DSP platform called Chameleon. Those product being very interesting from theirs capabilities didn't fit a market too well, did they?

Oasys' success is remarkable but it's not a mainstream synth/workstation.

Good set of sound, good controls, an useful sequencer, an inspiring arp (Karma being a major step up but it's not making a more normal arp any less useful) are what is in a demand. Both M3 and XS deliver in their own ways these things.

[vEddY]

Behind in some things but better in some others. XS is as much desirable as M3 is - even an old FantomX has its merits. After looking at specs they are quite balanced among these new workstation.
What is refreshing about M3 is the standalone version - it's a first time from a long time since a keyboardless version of workstation didn't get crippled in some way.

Absolutely, which I made perfectly clear in my article. Do I have to use the same quotes all over again? There are more then a few sounds that I like in XS, as well as the fact that the sampler can do 1GB (320MB on M3), and other things. I'm yet to write the "part II" of the article so people can discover what else is there "under the hood".
I think we can agree that we disagree on the "XS is as much desireable as M3" thing. And personally, I don't see that as a problem - if we're normal, that doesn't mean we can't talk because of that, right?

If I have to spend lots of money and start from a scratch I'd get XS, M3-m and FantomXR loaded with SRX cards.
And for some boasting about their own products and trying to show a competition's ones in a worse light isn't called a marketing?

I agree with your choice of equipment, man I like some of the Fantom's sounds, as well as XS, as well as M3's I guess they would give anyone a very "round" sound, without any space for argument about the sound quality.
As far as this "marketing" thing is concerned - are you referring to KORG, Yamaha or me? Because I can only speak for myself here. What I saw on the motifator forum is this - that's what's being done by Yamaha employees, outsourced employees and fans. I don't remember saying anything disrespectful about any Yamaha product, and I'm not a KORG employee, nor sponsored by KORG in any way. You should've actually hear what I told a KORG representative while I was in a meeting about some things in some of their products. I don't know, it's a "point of view" matter, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe "being spoiled by KARMA" does offend someone. But this is what it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned - KARMA can do everything arp's can and much, much more. So, as an example, let's say that you have two workstations that are completely even with everything except for that - would you rather buy KARMA-based or arp-based keyboard? Just an example.

Yamaha had been having something similar conceptually to Oasys in EX series. It get replaced by Motif instead of being updated. There were Kawai K5000, FS1r, Creamware Noah or even totally flexible DSP platform called Chameleon. Those product being very interesting from theirs capabilities didn't fit a market too well, did they? Oasys' success is remarkable but it's not a mainstream synth/workstation.
Good set of sound, good controls, an useful sequencer, an inspiring arp (Karma being a major step up but it's not making a more normal arp any less useful) are what is in a demand. Both M3 and XS deliver in their own ways these things.

Nope, they didn't, whereas OASYS fits the market, I guess. I heard something about sales figures and if these numbers were correct, I think that people at KORG smile everyday when they see OASYS at their workplace. I know I do, because it's an amazing piece of equipment. So is Motif, so is K2600, so is Fantom. But coming from the world where I get letters from my readers on a daily basis, I think I can be pretty safe by saying that people today pay less and less attention about the "this is M3, this is Fantom" thing - what people care about more and more is to get the most for their money. I mean, OASYS might or might not be the "coolest" thing around, but that doesn't mean that everyone's gonna buy it, not only because of the price.
Anyway, maybe someone got pissed off because I wrote that Yamaha's behind. This comment was purely technology-related. OASYS has been around the block for two years now, and yet I don't see any workstation that can compete with it (and I'm not talking about VST-based things like Muse Receptor or OpenLabs Neko/Miko). This is something that I'm actually CONCERNED about, because there's always room for competition, and not only that - competition is much needed in order to push companies to their limits. Which is something I don't see happening in the high-end workstation segment. Which actually annoys me

I'm gonna set the record straight right here and now about this KARMA thing... By letting you know about my initial feelings when I tried the KARMA Workstation years ago, and then OASYS.
At first when I saw this keyboard, I thought "KARMA? Are we being a little bit pretentious?" (referring to the name "KARMA"). Then I tried playing it and decided that I absolutely hate the keys (which is something we talked about on this forum at least a thowsand times). Then I started going through patches, listening to all of the sounds and went - wow, this is really cool! I mean, I pretty much had Triton sounds flowing through my veins - loving and hating some of them - but when I heard KARMA applied to them, I thought "ok, this thing has something" And the only reason why I didn't buy KARMA Ws was the keybed that was awful (and because later on, I found out that OASYS is on the way with new KARMA). You can take this "keybed-thing" with a grain of salt because I don't like semi/synth action at all, being a piano player. If KORG had a rack-version, I would most probably get it.
But it wasn't until the OASYS was out that I went "WOOOOW, WHOA!!!! AMAZING!!!". I was completely blown away and impressed with KARMA v2 and I still am, to this day. I mean, watching and listening to KORG crew doing KARMA-fied demoes was really an "experience". "Welcome to Cyberville" still gives me the chills (thanks, Stephen!). So does "Funk in the year 2525" and "Citadel in Space" and others You should hear and see my friends' faces or faces of people when we do concerts when I do these tunes in breaks between the sets...

[Gammaray]

Behind in some things but better in some others. XS is as much desirable as M3 is - even an old FantomX has its merits. After looking at specs they are quite balanced among these new workstation.
What is refreshing about M3 is the standalone version - it's a first time from a long time since a keyboardless version of workstation didn't get crippled in some way.

Absolutely, which I made perfectly clear in my article. Do I have to use the same quotes all over again? There are more then a few sounds that I like in XS, as well as the fact that the sampler can do 1GB (320MB on M3), and other things. I'm yet to write the "part II" of the article so people can discover what else is there "under the hood".
I think we can agree that we disagree on the "XS is as much desireable as M3" thing. And personally, I don't see that as a problem - if we're normal, that doesn't mean we can't talk because of that, right?

Sorry it wasn't my intention to make any stir.

If I have to spend lots of money and start from a scratch I'd get XS, M3-m and FantomXR loaded with SRX cards.
And for some boasting about their own products and trying to show a competition's ones in a worse light isn't called a marketing?

I agree with your choice of equipment, man I like some of the Fantom's sounds, as well as XS, as well as M3's I guess they would give anyone a very "round" sound, without any space for argument about the sound quality.
As far as this "marketing" thing is concerned - are you referring to KORG, Yamaha or me?

I had no one in my mind. There is always some personal bias and naturally it sometimes can get a bit rough. Companies have to be proactive about their products as well. It's just my small observation.

Because I can only speak for myself here. What I saw on the motifator forum is this - that's what's being done by Yamaha employees, outsourced employees and fans. I don't remember saying anything disrespectful about any Yamaha product, and I'm not a KORG employee, nor sponsored by KORG in any way. You should've actually hear what I told a KORG representative while I was in a meeting about some things in some of their products. I don't know, it's a "point of view" matter, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe "being spoiled by KARMA" does offend someone. But this is what it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned - KARMA can do everything arp's can and much, much more. So, as an example, let's say that you have two workstations that are completely even with everything except for that - would you rather buy KARMA-based or arp-based keyboard? Just an example.

It's why I'm considering M3-m because it'd be something new to me. How it'd be useful for me I could only tell after some time using it. I will not deny Karma superiority but it doesn't make something like XS' arp useless. And we know your example is just a thought experiment because synth companies are too smart to not differentiate theirs offerings.

Having ES rack XS would be a similar thing. Not I'd not like have one but I like variety. However there is an one thing for what I'd get XS - if it only had QY700 like sequencer.

Yamaha had been having something similar conceptually to Oasys in EX series. It get replaced by Motif instead of being updated. There were Kawai K5000, FS1r, Creamware Noah or even totally flexible DSP platform called Chameleon. Those product being very interesting from theirs capabilities didn't fit a market too well, did they? Oasys' success is remarkable but it's not a mainstream synth/workstation.
Good set of sound, good controls, an useful sequencer, an inspiring arp (Karma being a major step up but it's not making a more normal arp any less useful) are what is in a demand. Both M3 and XS deliver in their own ways these things.

Nope, they didn't, whereas OASYS fits the market, I guess. I heard something about sales figures and if these numbers were correct, I think that people at KORG smile everyday when they see OASYS at their workplace. I know I do, because it's an amazing piece of equipment. So is Motif, so is K2600, so is Fantom. But coming from the world where I get letters from my readers on a daily basis, I think I can be pretty safe by saying that people today pay less and less attention about the "this is M3, this is Fantom" thing - what people care about more and more is to get the most for their money. I mean, OASYS might or might not be the "coolest" thing around, but that doesn't mean that everyone's gonna buy it, not only because of the price.
Anyway, maybe someone got pissed off because I wrote that Yamaha's behind. This comment was purely technology-related. OASYS has been around the block for two years now, and yet I don't see any workstation that can compete with it (and I'm not talking about VST-based things like Muse Receptor or OpenLabs Neko/Miko). This is something that I'm actually CONCERNED about, because there's always room for competition, and not only that - competition is much needed in order to push companies to their limits. Which is something I don't see happening in the high-end workstation segment. Which actually annoys me

Wonder why?

When a company has an established product line it will not be willing to change everything. It's clear Yamaha is preferring to stay with Motif paradigm and just augment it by every generation. So they can keep similar price levels for next versions. ES has a basically the same interface as first Motif but get much better specs. XS has better interface, better sampling, better connectivity but both effects instances and polyphony had to stay the same.

Some were critical about it. But if it'd get improvements in everything and in a results cost more then people would be complaining too...

Imho XS' specs weren't dictated by Yamaha supposed technical inability but a pure marketing calculation. They focused on some other goals.
The same goes for every product I suppose.

[bkboy]

Veddy wrote:
"Now, let me be a journalist for a second, while trying to be as objective as I can be. They're bigger, they have more money, but they're BEHIND."

Hmmmm...I don't think you are being fair (like some Yamaha employees). In no way is Motif XS behind....it has 8 multi-layer, wave cycling, ecm effects, a superb sequencer....Didn't Korg catch up with Yamaha's 480ppq resolution recently? (Triton Extreme had only 192ppq). Motif XS has more different types of insert effects per channel than M3 (even if M3's 5 inserts could be dual or bused). I have a Triton Extreme, and though the filters are a little weak, I like the electronic sounds and clarity of the sounds, it sits well in an electronic mix, unlike the old Motif ES which sounded 'flat' and 'natural'. I could never use the Karma because I couldn't afford the software on the Triton Extreme. So I am glad Mr Kay is including it with the M3....which is a big plus for the M3.

Also like someone said, as far as acoustic sounds, Yamaha can't be beat. I still own a VL1 and though its one note polyphony, its realism is unbeatable for synths.

I understand its resonable atleast in the minds of respective companies to have a notion that their product is superior over the others. But I think Mr. Veddy (with no disrespect intended), you are more biased towards Korg. I think its more of personal preference than objectivity.