Korg Forums

I get tired of people commenting on which keyboard is better.
They’re both outstanding you can’t go wrong with neither.
And both have FLAWS that you will discover after you buy it.

jimknopf wrote:But you are aware of the limits of two hands playing, while you trigger the looper with one foot, the piano sustain pedal with the other, and open cutoff on your VA synth via your expression pedal with the third foot, not dropping the blues harp in your teeth in the meantime?

On the Kronos? No, I am not aware of any limits! What are the limitations? (Note that I won't be using an expression pedals or others, just a sustain pedal only)

GregC wrote: How many independent midi channels and independent midi instruments does Montage send over to a sequencer like Cubase, etc, ?

I've read several people's posts that the Montage sends 16 independent over to the DAW

Poseidon wrote:I get tired of people commenting on which keyboard is better.
They’re both outstanding you can’t go wrong with neither.
And both have FLAWS that you will discover after you buy it.

It's actually good to discuss and know what the limitation are so that you are aware, and sometimes people find(or find out about) a workaround or fix, then share this with everyone.

For me it's extremely good and important to hear the limitations of both the Kronos and the Montage, as it will help me make a better informed decision on which one I will purchase. I can't afford both and I want to be able to do certain things, so it is helpful to know what each can and can't do. Not that I think one is better than the other, but one might be more suitable for my needs.

Poseidon wrote:I get tired of people commenting on which keyboard is better.
They’re both outstanding you can’t go wrong with neither.
And both have FLAWS that you will discover after you buy it.

its a complex decision. And expensive. and folks have opinions and knowledge which is helpful

Maybe not related- I like to introduce different topics here , like my ' Creative Corner" topic.

So feel free to start something a little different.

vertig0spin wrote:

GregC wrote: How many independent midi channels and independent midi instruments does Montage send over to a sequencer like Cubase, etc, ?

I've read several people's posts that the Montage sends 16 independent over to the DAW

Thank you !

If you like to record, having/sending over at least 16 independent midi tracks is a must

HI vertig0spin
After 5 pages of advice & reviews,
have you come to a DECISION , or has it left you more confused ?
will Santa surprise you this Christmas ?










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NETWORK1 wrote:HI vertig0spin
After 5 pages of advice & reviews,
have you come to a DECISION , or has it left you more confused ?
will Santa surprise you this Christmas ?

Yes, I have finally decided. All the discussion brought clarity, not confusion, so thanks to everyone that provided input and information!

No, Santa will not be bringing me a new Keyboard this Christmas, but hopefully not to far into the new year I will have the money.

I am going with the Montage8. I just heard a collective gasp...
There are several reasons behind my decision. One of them most recently was finding out about Polyphony on the Kronos. I am only going to have one keyboard to do everything with/on, and much of what I plan on doing while gigging live shows is running a lot of different sequenced sounds from multiple engines, while at the same time playing numerous layered sounds, splits, vocoder, etc. on the keyboard. Another small reason is that I think it will be easier to program the DX7 sounds on the Montage than the Kronos. Also, the Kronos is likely closer to a new replacement than the Montage is at this point in time, and I want to make sure the keyboard has the most support longevity...I would kick myself if I went with the Kronos and something newer & better came out a year or so down the road. I defintely wouldn't be in a position to trade in/sell and buy the newer model. Also, I do not want to spend much time learning to program the keyboard...since I already have a DX7-II, the Montage seems like the choice that I'll spend the least time learning, and most time playing, recording, writing on, etc.

I have no doubt that the Kronos would be awesome too and is a beast! But for my needs and somewhat the timing of it, I think the Montage is what will work best for me.

Who knows, maybe I'll win the lotto and have both keyboards!?

vertig0spin wrote:

NETWORK1 wrote:HI vertig0spin
After 5 pages of advice & reviews,
have you come to a DECISION , or has it left you more confused ?
will Santa surprise you this Christmas ?

Yes, I have finally decided. All the discussion brought clarity, not confusion, so thanks to everyone that provided input and information!

No, Santa will not be bringing me a new Keyboard this Christmas, but hopefully not to far into the new year I will have the money.

I am going with the Montage8. I just heard a collective gasp...
There are several reasons behind my decision. One of them most recently was finding out about Polyphony on the Kronos. I am only going to have one keyboard to do everything with/on, and much of what I plan on doing while gigging live shows is running a lot of different sequenced sounds from multiple engines, while at the same time playing numerous layered sounds, splits, vocoder, etc. on the keyboard. Another small reason is that I think it will be easier to program the DX7 sounds on the Montage than the Kronos. Also, the Kronos is likely closer to a new replacement than the Montage is at this point in time, and I want to make sure the keyboard has the most support longevity...I would kick myself if I went with the Kronos and something newer & better came out a year or so down the road. I defintely wouldn't be in a position to trade in/sell and buy the newer model. Also, I do not want to spend much time learning to program the keyboard...since I already have a DX7-II, the Montage seems like the choice that I'll spend the least time learning, and most time playing, recording, writing on, etc.

I have no doubt that the Kronos would be awesome too and is a beast! But for my needs and somewhat the timing of it, I think the Montage is what will work best for me.

Who knows, maybe I'll win the lotto and have both keyboards!?

I was going to give you my K, but since you have made up your mind...


So now you need a SEQ for your gig plans ? Dragging a laptop with a DAW
to gigs ?

And Montage has only 2 engines.

Suggest you read SOS:

The Sound Engines

Perhaps the most important thing you need to understand about the Montage is that it’s a synthesizer rather than a workstation. It offers two sound engines (AWM2 and FM-X) that you can use separately or combine freely in composite sounds and multitimbral setups, plus highly evolved arpeggiation, multitimbral effects and a basic MIDI recorder, but no sampling capabilities and no audio/MIDI sequencing. I have often wondered whether the world needs another synth with an on-board sequencer that will be ignored in favour of the likes of Digital Performer, Logic or Sonar (it doesn’t), so I am delighted that Yamaha’s programmers have invested their time and expertise on its sound.

Although it is 16-part multitimbral, there’s no ‘patch’ level for programming sounds: everything is done at the Performance level, which combines sound selection, editing, mixing, multitimbral assignments, and much more.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-montage-7

GregC wrote:its a complex decision. And expensive. and folks have opinions and knowledge which is helpful.

The choice I made was driven partially by comments (not from this forum),and it went wrong. Regardless today I can say that I do not regret purchasing korg kronos, but the old wound is still there ... perhaps that's where my frustration came from.

Great thing about choosing one or the other of two things you never had , to know the difference between them, is that you won’t know what you are missing from what you never had.

Reality is being able to live well with what we got.

And when you are at the narrow top tier of workstations on earth, there is only a sort of madness to be had if you cannot make one work for you, especially with a laptop and DAW options to go along.

I make Kronos polyphony work for me via layering in sounds from iPad and external drum+bass machine.

Hey Greg,

This was not an easy decision for me and I sincerely appreciate everyone's input, advise, information in helping me make this decision.

When I started researching the latest Workstations/Synths over 2 months ago, this is one of the first videos I saw, which talked about several of the latest keyboards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDA140rQrg

From there I was on a path towards the Korg Krome hoping that it could do what I needed at it's price point, or if not then I was looking at the Kronos. I started checking out the Krome, Kronos, Roland, Montage, and eventually started focusing on the MODX8, because it was the only one that I had a chance to try at the music store where I live. That was the only good synth or workstation they had. I did not like how it triggered the pianos down in the mid/lower range, as is so evident in this video that I came across:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ob4o2xEH6Y


When I first watched that video, I didn't really get how bad the MODX8 keybed was and thought that he was just playing softer on the MODX or had the volume down on the MODX. But after having tried the MODX8 and then over a month later tried the Montage8, I confidently can say that what you hear in that video is spot on, and that the volumes are set perfectly the same. Just listen to any of the highest piano notes near the beginning of the video above C5 that he compares ... they are the same volume on the highest notes! Listen to the very first bass notes he hits on both, and all the playing he does in the mid/lower range. Those bass notes are miles apart in volume and triggered velocity, yet the highest keys shortly after are the exact same volume and triggered samples.

The MODX8 GHS keybed is graduated so it doesn't trigger the samples of a piano evenly from the lower keys to the higher ones. Therefore the Mid/Lower section is way too soft and don't trigger sample velocities properly, where as the highest keys trigger them perfectly. The MODX8 is terrible and unplayable for a piano player. So I started trying to get Yamaha to introduce 'Velocity Scaling' in a future enhancement/upgrade, to counter the bad keybed. Meanwhile, I'm still holding hope for the Krome, and starting to research the Kronos and Montage more and more.

This was one of the next main videos that I focused on because having awesome acoustic grand pianos was extremely import to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDCchm2zP6s

From 1:13 to around 1:50 it was clear to me that the Kronos was sounding much better than the Montage on piano sounds, and the Kronos had that "bell-like" sound in the notes when hitting a bit harder velocities. So the Kronos was quickly becoming my main goto! Then I stumbled across this video and around the 0:24 sec mark until around the 0:56 mark, I heard the same "bell-like" sounds as the Kronos had and heard the Montage pianos in a different light:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKvbYU8aapg


From there I did a lot of research on those 2 Korgs and 2 Yamaha's. It was difficult, but I ruled out the Krome, which left the Kronos and the Montage/MODX. But the MODX didn't do it for me on pianos and the User memory space for adding new sound libraries was too low, so I had to rule it out. That meant that the two less expensive keyboards that I was desperately trying to find a way to make them work for me, were not going to work, and were no longer options...leaving only the Kronos and Montage to choose between. But although the Montage was starting to compete with it's pianos (not just based on that one video), it wasn't a full Workstation and the onboard sequencer was very limited. So I researched to find out could the Montage even do what I needed my new keyboard to do. It wasn't looking good for the Montage at this point. But I continued focusing on and researching both the Kronos and Montage.

GregC wrote: So now you need a SEQ for your gig plans ? Dragging a laptop with a DAW
to gigs ?

That was one of the things I do not want to do anymore...drag a laptop with me to gigs, and therefore I was looking for a Workstation that could do sequencing, etc. As I said, when I first started researching the various synths, the Krome/Kronos were highest on my list, but I thought I'd give the others a good analysis to see what they can really do.

I came across forum posts, articles, videos and this page below. Yamaha had put a 16 track sequencer onboard, but without onboard editing or punch-in/punch-out functionality, because they decided to offload all of the sequence editing & workflows to a DAW, whereby you put down your tracks roughly on the Keyboard, then using 'Montage Connect', export them(the 'song' midi data) to a DAW, whereby you can completely edit every track exactly the way you wanted them to be. Once done, you save the MIDI tracks from the DAW to a MIDI file, copy to USB and import the 'song' data back into the Montage. Note that via USB, the Montage contacts to the DAW using 16 separate MIDI channels.
https://www.yamahasynth.com/montage-cat ... ge-connect

You basically have a fully sequenced and edited 16 tracks that you can play back on the Montage without the need for any Laptop or computer or separate drum machine with you at your gig...this post clarifies it and sums it up fairly well. Note - The Montage has the same sequencing/DAW editing/etc. as the MODX:
https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11682

In the Yamaha specs for the Montage, since this 16 Track Sequencer is not fully functional on the keyboard itself for editing purposes, they call it a 'Performance Recorder'. But with a DAW to edit your MIDI based sequencing, it becomes a full sequencer that can play back anything you can on a Workstation that has a full onboard sequencer.
https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/music ... oduct-tabs

GregC wrote: And Montage has only 2 engines.
Suggest you read SOS:
The Sound Engines

I did read the SOS article several weeks or so ago. But the specs say that the Polyphony on the Montage between these two engines combined (added together), is AWM2: 128 + FM-X: 128 = 256
One engine is Sample based that has many Analog sampled sounds that I wanted, and the other FM based. Unfortunately, this is where the Kronos fell behind for me, when I found out that it's polyphony on multiple layered sounds from multiple engines, was the opposite of what I thought it was and of what I need for playing gigs. It was someone on the FaceBook Community who has both the Kronos and the Montage, that made an odd comment about the Kronos saying something the affect of "I just wish the Kronos had more polyphony". Then several Kronos owners, some on this forum, confirmed my fears about the polyphony.
https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/music ... oduct-tabs
https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthe ... page_2.php ("*2")

GregC wrote: Perhaps the most important thing you need to understand about the Montage is that it’s a synthesizer rather than a workstation. It offers two sound engines (AWM2 and FM-X) that you can use separately or combine freely in composite sounds and multitimbral setups, plus highly evolved arpeggiation, multitimbral effects and a basic MIDI recorder, but no sampling capabilities and no audio/MIDI sequencing. I have often wondered whether the world needs another synth with an on-board sequencer that will be ignored in favour of the likes of Digital Performer, Logic or Sonar (it doesn’t), so I am delighted that Yamaha’s programmers have invested their time and expertise on its sound.

So I covered the Sequencing, as it can all be done in the DAW of my choice, and fully played back on the Montage sequencer. Yamaha give you for free the Full Cubase VST DAW software when you buy their Montage or MODX, but my choice is likely going to be the one I've worked with for years, "Pro Tools", which I am very familiar with saving MIDI tracks using VST Instrument Plugins, editing them and using them for recording my songs.

As far as sampling capabilities go, I will use Protools to sample everything I need. Then I will use the 'John Melas Waveform Editor Montage' to create new complex sample based sounds/parts/performances, as per the post below(2nd paragraph) and the link to the utility below it:
https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewt ... 909#p72384

'John Melas Waveform Editor Montage'
http://www.jmelas.gr/montage/wave.php

GregC wrote: Although it is 16-part multitimbral, there’s no ‘patch’ level for programming sounds: everything is done at the Performance level, which combines sound selection, editing, mixing, multitimbral assignments, and much more.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-montage-7

I don't know enough about the Montage yet, but I think it can also do voices, which I believe are basically patches. The Montage/MODX refer to a 'patch' as either a 'Voice' or a Single part 'Performance'. Either a voice or single part performance have 1 'Part', which is basically one single sound/voice. Each Performance can have up to 16 'Parts' or 'sounds'. Different terminology, but a new way of doing things. I was able to wrap my head around it quickly because my DX7II has Voices (basically single 'sounds' or 'parts') and Perfomances (basically 1 or 2 voices/sounds/parts, that I can layer or split). So the Montage is not much different than the DX7II, except it has Performances with 16 parts/voices/sounds, instead of just 2, and 256 voice polyphony instead of 32 voice on my DX.


I don't doubt how awesome a beast the Kronos is. My decision is more based on what will work best for me. I am not a professional musician with a lot of time to learn a very indepth keyboard and program sounds on my new workstation/synth and learn how to use a full onboard sequencer/karma/etc., when I am already used to doing much of this on my Protools DAW. I know I will miss out on some good Karma, but the Montage seems to have some decent arpeggio functionality, side-chaining, motion sequencing, etc. And it has all the Polyphony I will need when I have 8 tracks of Drums, Bass, pads, strings, guitars, etc., playing on the sequencer, while at the same time I play the keyboard using another 8 voices of multiple layers, splits, vocoder, custom sampled sounds, etc.

Basically, when gigging I don't want to take a laptop, a drum machine, or another keyboard, etc. with me. I want to take just 1 keyboard that has the polyphony, the sounds and the ability to do it all!

Cheers,
Darryl

Montage is a great keyboard and hope you enjoy it.

vertig0spin
Thanx for your very informative post
You really know your stuff
Your Extensive research shows intelligence
In making the right decision for You.








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Bruno Mars keyboardist likes Kronos and dishes Yamaha XF8 can't understand no love for the Montage. Just one opinion but see these dang KRONOS all on late night TV.

https://www.keyboardmag.com/artists/joh ... -interview