Kronos... why does it sound so thin compared to PC3K?

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:11 am

jeremykeys wrote:I'm following this discussion with great interest. Just out of curiosity does anyone find the Japanese grand sounds thin compared to the German grand?

Yes, it's definitely it's own thing. The key IMO is to tweak each one based on their strengths. That said I still prefer the German most of the time.

Rosen Sound · Post by **Rosen Sound** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:20 pm

In my own experience, I've never really liked kurzweil. I agree that the synth engine is extremely deep and flexible, however I always find the sounds lacking. I owned a kurzweil micropiano while I owned triton series keyboards and I loved it. Even though i don't own one, please mind you I get to use kurzweils for a week at a time every few weeks while it's in my shop awaiting the owner to pick it up after repair. I always find them lacking high end and the sounds just don't 'come out' at me. I can see the quality in them but I could never find myself buying one.

As for Roland, I never liked them at all. Sure the V-piano may sound amazing, but as previously said, who could actually afford one! I think for Roland the problem really is the samples. The engine is nice but what is it without a good sample? If i played only 3rd party samples, a fantom would be my first choice. The brass on the Fantom series sounds like crap if you ask me.

I'm more than happy with my kronos. Every time i use a different board it reminds me how amazing it is.

Macca · Post by **Macca** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:49 am

Just wanted to put my own take on this thread.
I did a quick on the fly recording of the PC3K using it's own equivalent of a combi. -
www.xtremekeys.co.uk
(navigate to Planet E - video - TechnoTunnel)

I am very fortunate to own both Kronos and the PC3K 88 - along with Motif XS, Fantom X V-Synth and Jupiter 80.
I honestly think each keyboard has it's own unique sounds and abilities, along with it's own weaknesses.
The PC3K has a wonderful key bed if you are like me a trained pianist. It is also very clever considering such a low basic Rom.
The Kronos however is vast to coin the Kurz phrase and has incredible potential if you have the time to learn and delve. It is easier to build soundscapes and combis than the Kurz
As for thin and fat sounds - depends on your layers and effects really

1jordyzzz · Post by **1jordyzzz** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:44 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Vlad_77 wrote:Yamaha? Ironically their best experiments ended with the original Motif.
Nope, I'd rather say EX-5.

+1

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:42 pm

1jordyzzz wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
Vlad_77 wrote:Yamaha? Ironically their best experiments ended with the original Motif.
Nope, I'd rather say EX-5.
+1

As a former EX5 owner, +2!

If it wasn't half baked with a messed up sequencer, SCSI, and a little thin on the sample set, would have been one of the best synths of all time. The AN, VL, and FDSP were all INTEGRATED and not on cheap inferior sounding add-on cards. Beautiful hardware to boot.

The EX5 is PROOF Yamaha can do a Kronos.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:01 pm

Too bad AN only had 2 notes of poly.

Makes me happy I have my AN1x.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:56 am

Macca, I think you nailed it!

It all depends on the layers and effects!

alanjpearson · Post by **alanjpearson** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:21 am

robbinhood wrote:In my own experience, I've never really liked kurzweil. I agree that the synth engine is extremely deep and flexible, however I always find the sounds lacking. I owned a kurzweil micropiano while I owned triton series keyboards and I loved it. Even though i don't own one, please mind you I get to use kurzweils for a week at a time every few weeks while it's in my shop awaiting the owner to pick it up after repair. I always find them lacking high end and the sounds just don't 'come out' at me. I can see the quality in them but I could never find myself buying one.

As for Roland, I never liked them at all. Sure the V-piano may sound amazing, but as previously said, who could actually afford one! I think for Roland the problem really is the samples. The engine is nice but what is it without a good sample? If i played only 3rd party samples, a fantom would be my first choice. The brass on the Fantom series sounds like crap if you ask me.

I'm more than happy with my kronos. Every time i use a different board it reminds me how amazing it is.

I'll repeat what I said - this entire discussion about which manufacturer and which synth is entirely subjective, pointless and childish.

I'd venture to say that if you took the same sample and put it on a machine from each manufacturer under the same conditions you will get the same sound.

It's just how you get there, which knobs to twiddle and features you like that makes the difference. Everything else is noise (pardon the pun).

R
Alan

alanjpearson wrote:This "kurzweil vs Korg vs Roland etc etc" comes up all the time and it is virtually meaningless.

And "fat" and "thin" are not good scientific measurements and neither is how you appear to be judging them!

e.g. If you have exactly the same samples on each machine and listen to them side by side through the same amp, with the same EQ, then you are beginning to get close to a proper test. Otherwise how can you compare???

(Cables are irrelevant BTW - the whole industry around using gold etc is a complete sham - a decent set of quality cables is all you need)

Otherwise this is a totally subjective argument and you are making your decision with no factual evidence.

Still, it's your money!

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:49 am

alanjpearson wrote:I'd venture to say that if you took the same sample and put it on a machine from each manufacturer under the same conditions you will get the same sound.

Unfortunately this is not true. Different filters (even when fully open) can color the sound somewhat. Also, Korg/Roland/Yamaha/Kurzweil/etc. don't use the same DA converters. They also impart their fingerprint on the sound. Different output stages really matter, and this has been proven time and time again throughout the history.

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:37 pm

you guys are nuts!

It's strange that with so many synths to play, many with good to great piano sound, yet they are all different, yet they are all the same.

We all have our favorites. But who cares.

Some are thin, some are fat, I don't know exactly what these terms mean, but some sounds work more effectively in one application/production/song than another.

I think it is time to change your point of view.

I now look at my electronic music equipment as one large modular synth, plugging one keyboard into another to achieve a sound. Finding ways to have one synth modulate another. Use the sequencer on one, while playing on another, routing audio from one synth into another and using different effects processing of the other.

I recently pulled out the JLCooper MSB+revII, what a cool MIDI switcher, 8 in and 8 out with various patching, switching features. Wish someone would re-release this device or better yet, incorporated into some keyboard, like the Kronos.

I list my keyboards in my signature because I love keyboards. There is no "vs", the term in my world is; "and" and/or "or".

The more the better. Which one's better? The one that meets the demand of the application of the moment, and that constantly changes.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:09 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
alanjpearson wrote:I'd venture to say that if you took the same sample and put it on a machine from each manufacturer under the same conditions you will get the same sound.
Unfortunately this is not true. Different filters (even when fully open) can color the sound somewhat. Also, Korg/Roland/Yamaha/Kurzweil/etc. don't use the same DA converters. They also impart their fingerprint on the sound. Different output stages really matter, and this has been proven time and time again throughout the history.

+1

Add, that samples (quality, length, number of sample splitpoints, looped or not looped) plus the patches created of them (programmer skill makes a HUGE difference here, besides filter characteristics etc.), are normally quite different among synths.

That's the fun of choices: different machines, different sound characteristics.
While at home, you just enjoy the sound palette of anything available (see JPWC).

For live use you better decide, what you really want to carry around, and how well it delivers the sounds you need and want. For me that means: carry around 2 keyboards at maximum (weighted and unweighted, and maybe an additional rack if required). Making a choice here necessarily does mean "vs.", but just for practical reasons (money and weight), and according to your own sound and usability priorities. I get by with a Kronos alone in most cases, and (according to my priorities) I wouldn't say that of ANY other synth at the moment.

alanjpearson · Post by **alanjpearson** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:30 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
alanjpearson wrote:I'd venture to say that if you took the same sample and put it on a machine from each manufacturer under the same conditions you will get the same sound.
Unfortunately this is not true. Different filters (even when fully open) can color the sound somewhat. Also, Korg/Roland/Yamaha/Kurzweil/etc. don't use the same DA converters. They also impart their fingerprint on the sound. Different output stages really matter, and this has been proven time and time again throughout the history.

You are not reading what I wrote!
Same sample - same conditions.

What filter fully open? We're not talking about a synthesised sound here.

A sample played by a synth is simply data pushed through a DAC and I bet you all the money in the world you would not be able to tell the difference between one DAC and another.

Sure, you can equalise the sound by using effects, but I said "same conditions".

You'll be telling me the cables colour the sound next.........
(BTW I'm an electronics engineer and I GUARANTEE they do not!)

R
Alan

alanjpearson · Post by **alanjpearson** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:32 pm

jimknopf wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
alanjpearson wrote:I'd venture to say that if you took the same sample and put it on a machine from each manufacturer under the same conditions you will get the same sound.
Unfortunately this is not true. Different filters (even when fully open) can color the sound somewhat. Also, Korg/Roland/Yamaha/Kurzweil/etc. don't use the same DA converters. They also impart their fingerprint on the sound. Different output stages really matter, and this has been proven time and time again throughout the history.
+1

Add, that samples (quality, length, number of sample splitpoints, looped or not looped) plus the patches created of them (programmer skill makes a HUGE difference here, besides filter characteristics etc.), are normally quite different among synths.

-1

As above.
I said same sample and same conditions.

R
Alan

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:45 pm

EvilDragon wrote:Too bad AN only had 2 notes of poly.

Makes me happy I have my AN1x.

True, but note for note, the EX5 ate the AN1x (and especially the PLG cards!) for breakfast

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:46 pm

Alan, there are no "same conditions" among any pair of two different synths, as far as I can see.

No identical samples, no identical filters etc. (and yes, even ROMpler sounds DO pass different signal chains, including filters, on both compared synths). Synths are no CD-players for samples.

So your assumption seems purely theoretical to me. In reality synths sound different for a lot of reasons.