Montage by Yamaha

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jimknopf
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Re: Review

Post by jimknopf »

Mosquita Muerta wrote:Keyboard article ...
This is one of these hopelessly sugarcoating kind of articles, which have earned „Keyboard“ the dubious reputation of being an overly andulating, industry-dependeant publication hyping gear to stay alive themselves, with „reviews“ making the impression of not offering much beyond some inflated promotional information from company leaflets. As subscriber of „Keyboard“ I meanwhile only read artcicles related to music making (workshops, interviews) etc. from them, and completely ignore these mostly third-rated “reviews”.

What Stephen Fortner, a very experienced person I have a lot respect for, is writing here, really makes me wonder what the heck he was thinking experienced keyboarders would swallow blindly from such a "review".

One example: He seriously names only one predecessor “among some other brands” for seamless sound switching, namely Kurzweil – as if not Roland (in an imperfect way) and Korg (perfectly well done) had offered that since many years. And instead of writing, what would be appropriate: that it was high time that Yamaha, being a lot behind and the last(!) of the big four just named, finally closed the years long gap, Stephen Fortner goes as far as claiming that they were the first where you don’t hear “bumps in the audio” due to effects changes. I don’t hear “bumps in the audio”, using my Kronos’ completely smooth seamless sound switching, since 5 years.

Next: instead of naming the terribly weak organ sounds in the Montage as what they really are, just miserable, Fortner seriously claims that while the Leslie sim is weak, „the organ sounds themselves are good enough that with the aid of a better rotary pedal (or real Leslie), you could use it as your main source of B-3 sounds all night.” I dare to doubt that using a sample set, even with a better Leslie, would be an option even worth considering for keyboarders wanting to play B3 sounds all night, while they can have all kinds of fully and well working B3 clones, of which most do a better job by a big margin. Why would they want to use a static sample set “as your main source of B-3 sounds all night” instead???

Next: not being able to deny the missing of further useful engines besides AWM2 and FM in the Montage, Fortner seriously claims, that while that’s a valid point, it wouldn’t really matter, because motions control in conjunction with AWM2 and FM-X engines would “generate any sound you might need, with fidelity that just may edge the Kronos a few feet down the bench at this point.” This, from my view, is a double load of pure nonsense:

a) comparing the possiblities of VA synth and B3 clone sound shaping with Montage functions, which simply don’t deliver any of that, while not at all comparing the automation and controller functionality of motion sequencing, superknob etc. from the Montage with automation and controller functionality of AMS, Karma, vector control etc. in the Kronos, leads to a complete mess of comparing apples and oranges.

b) claiming a “fidelity that just may edge the Kronos a few feet down the bench at this point”, without naming a single valid argument for this steep claim, beyond pure claiming, just looks funny. He neither has done any serious DAC comparison or the like, concerning the resulting basic sound quality, nor can he seriously claim, that the quality of big sample streaming libraries (both from commercial offers and user sampling) in the Kronos can’t compare with the factory samples of the Montage.

All in all Fortner talks in this article, as if Yamaha had just invented rocket science for the Montage, instead of naming, how much they have profited from ideas for the Kronos and other synths, like Setlist functionality, really smooth sound transition, advanced controller functionality etc.

Then the overdoing bathos becomes completely ridiculous, when Fortner tries to sell the Montage's modulated sounds to his readers as a completely new, unheard of level of sound shaping, resulting in something like “running multiple instances of Omnisphere, only with shoulder-devil versions of Brian Eno, Deadmau5, and John Williams weighing in on what to do next.” (sic!) I don’t know what kind of pills Fortner takes, but I want the same!

The first and most important, of about two and a half deficits really named at all in the cons summary at the end, seriously is not being able to create user arpeggios directly. And the blatantly missing sequencer functionality is immediately downplayed there to something "some" users possibly miss (just like the missing of engines was completely downplayed as being irrelevant some paragraphs before). Of course you don’t find a single word about the incredibly unhandy form factor and heavy weight of the Montage 88, and you don’t find clear critical words about the small sampling space with missing sampling functionality.

If you really want to get informed about the strong AND weak points of a keyboard, you can completely forget about this funny kind of “reviews”. In this case it wouldn’t make a big difference to get a PR article directly from Yamaha’s marketing campaign. If "Keyboard" only consisted of this kind of “reviews”, I would cancel my subscription tomorrow. Thankfully, it is not, and skillful writers write great articles about music making there.
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Montage Manual

Post by Mosquita Muerta »

Enjoy!


http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/fi ... t_id=66554


<iframe width="769" height="428" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8MG5KQd1bZ8" frameborder="0"></iframe>


<iframe width="769" height="428" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cnioINKF02Y" frameborder="0"></iframe>


<iframe width="769" height="428" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9XTXAwTNbxo" frameborder="0"></iframe>


<iframe width="769" height="428" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wNG7RqqTnFw" frameborder="0"></iframe>


<iframe width="769" height="428" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cSdzZ6wJkxY" frameborder="0"></iframe>


<iframe width="769" height="428" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/x1qZ7sHdOMg" frameborder="0"></iframe>
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Post by SanderXpander »

Great breakdown, Jim!
Honestly I started reading it and thought it was a promotional article from Yamaha, until I noticed the Pros and Cons box when I was half way in. That kind of article is nice to fuel GAS if you've already made up your mind but downright misleading if you're using it as buying advice. If a friend told you all that and you went to buy one, you'd never trust him again.
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Post by Derek Cook »

Devnor wrote:I have programmed many analog pads & leads in my Motif XF that sound as good as any VA out there. Blind listening with custom patches, I don't think anyone could actually tell the difference. A few years ago Scott Tibbs did a comparison between the Jupiter 80 and Jupiter 8. Had you not been able to see which synth he was playing, I think the attitudes about that youtube demo would be completely different.

People hear with their eyes almost as much as with their ears.

When I read criticisms of the Montage because it doesn't have a "proper VA" I just shake my head. Maybe some people have that need to see a picture of a classic analog synthesizer and that helps them appreciate the sound they are hearing. It's more "realer" to that listener. Maybe the VA sounds they want to create aren't possible on the originals. Then its no longer analog, its just a digital synth sound and the argument is invalid.

I stopped judging synths based on presets a long time ago. At some point, musicians will make it their own. What it comes down to is features and workflow. The possibilities of FM-X, motion control, AWM2 layering and VCM EFX within Montage have yet to be truly revealed.

Very soon, numerous players will march into Guitar Center, demo Montage and race home to let the internet how unimpressed & disappointed they are. But there will be others that buy it, make their sounds and ultimately create their own music with Montage. If we're lucky, we might be privileged to hear some of it.
Hi, my AWM experience stopped with my Motif Rack ES (kinda lost interest there ;) ). So I agree that AWM due to the quality of the filter with good samples can sound very good and "quite analog", but compare the AN engine in the EX5 (or undeed the AN1x) compared to a Motif (or EX5) "analog patch" programmed in AWM and there is a world of difference to my ears - but depending on the sound you are after.

It may be my ignorance with later Yamaha Motif models, so feel free to correct me if I have missed recent developments :) , but it's when you want to use techniques like cross mod or oscillator sync and PWM here a VA (or indeed a real analog synth!) will come into its own. Sure you can sample a synth doing those, but it won't be the same.
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

Hi Derek - You're correct that AN technology is magnificent, and widely respected. I'm on the end of a long process of auditioning several thousand programs for the AN1x so as to 'optimise' my AN!x library with the best 250 or so programs available across the web (using your exquisite AN_Factory Librarian software). The emerging library is magnificent. As you full well know, the AN1x is revered by many keyboard players and among it's strengths are low aliasing oscillators, an exquisite architecture and most of all a strength of sound and character that allows it even to emulate many minimoog sounds very respectably. The EX5 has a very similar engine, duophonic.

It would have been great to see this on Montage for sure.

Regarding Motif quality - all I can say is that despite a decade of me personally 'spitting' at Motif because of ITS shortcomings in my opinion, I have to say that about a year ago I auditioned the latest MOFX and I have to say I really liked it. I was very pleasantly surprised just how good its synth engine is - its range of features, and in particular its filters are really good. I mean - REALLY good. Yamaha know what they are doing. If Montage has those filters, it will sound wonderful. So while the AWM engine won't be able to do your traditional Hard Sync and other traditional synth sounds, in all other regards I think it is going to sound VERY capable for 'synth' sounds.

I remind you that the JD800 is a PCM oscillator based subtractive synth - from 1991 - and it sounds fabulous (and why I use seven of them :-) ) - so achieving amazing subtractive synth sounds is not problematic in any way.

Nevertheless, you are correct to flag how magnificent yamaha's AN technology is.
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Post by burningbusch »

jimknopf,

While I agree with your analysis, I'm not sure it's Fortner who wrote that unless his name is somewhere I missed. Steve Fortner quit Keyboard Mag as editor about six months ago but I believe he still does stuff for them as more of a freelance contributor. Keyboard has used quite a number of different reviewers in recent years and they're not opposed to using a fanboy here and there.

Listening to the above demos posts I thought they sounded very good. But wondered, are they really any better than what the Kronos can do? Playing a few combis on the Kronos against them and the answer is clearly no. All in the same ballpark. It's nice to hear Yamaha stretching their legs now that they don't have the four program limitation in the old performance mode. Sixteen parts, with motion sequencing gets you into the same general area as you can with combis, drum tracks, wave sequencing and KARMA.

Busch.
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Post by SanderXpander »

I will admit the JD900 is something of a special case but even that has a special flavor rather than being an analog chameleon. I can only underscore Jim and Derek's experience with sample-based analog sounds. With the odd exception here and there I find them on the whole pretty underwhelming. And with me scores of keyboard players, judging by the amount of VAs (and now real analogs) on the market. The same goes for clonewheels. I think it's just dishonest to claim in a "review" that the Montage could do B3 service all night. The fact that the reviewer apparently feels it necessary to even admit the leslie is weak speaks volumes to me.

What's funny to me actually touches on a point Kevin has been making. It's not necessary to pretend the Montage is a catch-all synth. You need some really seriously weak arguments to make that case. Instead the focus COULD be on the great programming, the really nice FM engine, the industry standard (like it or not) sample set, the great audio/DAW integration, etc.

I would like for Yamaha to try and make something like a Kronos, because I love the fact that I have a decent clonewheel, some good VAs, a great piano, highly expandable sampler and a DX7 on steroids all in one board. But Montage is clearly not a Kronos. Clearly, it isn't even really a Motif. That doesn't make it without value though.
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Post by jimknopf »

Busch,

here http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/re ... tage/57488
you can read the article with Stephen Fortner definitely named as author. Same with the printed version I have.

I completely agree about the basic sound quality: both synths (Montage like Kronos) offer pristine sound quality, as far as the Montage demos seem to indicate.

Concerning the quality of the patches in the sound demos above (and elswhere), tastes of listeners may vary from person to person and demo to demo. :wink:

The supersaw for example sounds quite convincing to me, though perhaps a bit clean, while the "Tektonik Dub" is a complete failure for my ears, lacking all authentic dub sound characteristics, compared to the raw power of dub basses and their growling wobbles etc. The Yamaha version rather sounds like a tamed, completely disarmed dub version for grandma's coffee circle, with literally nothing groundshaking ("tektonic") at all about it.

I just name this example, because a lot of the Montage demo synth sounds, especially those meant as contemporary synths, rather sounded a bit like plastic pop versions of real electro genre sounds to me. And in general the Yamaha sound ideal is not mine, offering much too much processed gloss sound for my taste in their patch programming. But that's a matter of taste, and what I don't like, may be exactly what sounds great to some others.

Sander, else I agree with you on the strong points of the Montage. The FM implementation sounds great to me, the 16part architecture is a big step beyond the Motif, the great Daw integration something we still don't have for the Kronos. But these strong points are part of a bigger picture with strong AND weak points. And this whole picture is relevant for what keyboarders can expect or rather not expect from the Montage.
Last edited by jimknopf on Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

As astounding as the demos sound, I've been 'through' enough synths and workstations in my time to realise that I'll never use them, and they are wholly impractical for any real music applications.

For professional applications, you always have to strip the instrument 'bare' because you're creating your own work, and anything layered / over effected is unusable and in the way.

So to me the acid test for Montage will be the quality of its sample libraries - in particular its pianos. And, as an FM programmer, I am genuinely excited about a) 8 operator algorithms - because that's deep and powerful b) touch screen designing of new FM sounds and c) motion sequencing / realtime performance capabilities of FM sounds.


Next is workflow - and with ONLY performances on board, it hugely simplifies work flow; while the capable I/O means uncompromising linkage to my DAW - absolutely crucial to me

So the bare, basic quality of this instrument is what's at stake for me. I don't give a damn about the weird and whacky demos. I own OASYS ten years and have not used one preset or purchased Combi on it for any pieces at all. I used one Combi on my Korg Karma about 10years ago. Again, they were designed to demo the instrument, not to be used in original works, so they are a waste of time.

Currently, I'm in the middle of a 3 year (on and off) 'optimzation' of all of my synths; to reduce their clutter, get rid of useless presets, build supreme preset libraries and create preset templates for real-world usage. It takes forever.

As one intriguing example of work I'm doing with Korgforums member Cello (former OASYS owner) on the Jupiter 80 - we have found that on many Roland provided JP80 Preset 'Registrations' the supernatural acoustic sound is routed to the outputs simultaneously along several 'paths' causing a kind of digital cancellation and reducing the fidelity and dynamics of the sound. In our stripped down Registrations and Livesets, we have in some cases radically improved the sound. For example - a pure, unaffected Supernatural Piano on the Jupiter 80 is genuinely superlative in quality. I can't say I know of a better digital piano sound, anywhere; even though the provided presets sound good, but far poorer than our 'cleared out' versions.


so on Montage, I'll be keen to try out its 6GB sample set as purely as is possible, try out what seems to be an exciting Bosendorfer Pianos set; and as mentioned, dig deep into their 8-operator FM feature set.

As mentioned several times over on this thread, I'm surprised at the continual observations of what Montage does not have; to the total exclusion of the seemingly sophisticated and deep feature set it does have.

It's not a Kronos because it's not trying to be - and for what I want, it goes beyond Kronos sample set and quality, potentially filter quality, FM programming (regarding number of operators and ease of programming and performance), and general realtime performance and workflow. Yamaha aren't thinking of the likes of Kronos - it is clear they have a different and more contemporary vision for their Rompler synths and we have here the product of smart design and serious engineering as Yamaha know how. Any comparisons with Kronos are meaningless.
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Post by jimknopf »

Meanwhile the reference manual (plus waveforms etc.) is available:
http://download.yamaha.com/search/produ ... id=2166246
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

After spending an hour skimming though the Reference and Data manuals, a few thought come to mind:

- I think i understand what Richard Devine was on about. It's a deep, deep operating system. It will take a lot of effort to get to know this system

- It seems to be wholly build around performance and motion of sound. the entire approach to the instrument is with this in mind

- Disappointingly (a biggie for me) - the Envelopes do NOT have loop points! the SY77 and SY99 do (MOD-7 doesn't) - and looping Envelopes allow for great scope and flexibility in sound design. A big pity.

- The number of AWM waveforms - at over 6000 - is astounding. I find it amazing how much effort the likes of Korg and Yamaha put into developing these waveform sets, and it all goes by as 'kind of expected' - if you get my drift? As in - nobody's singing from the tree tops about it. I still haven't explored 1/100th of the OASYS waveforms, and in truth never will. Yet it has endless gems in there - and no doubt this Montage has too. So I hope this gigantic waveform set makes a difference to users, because it's huge, and constitutes a huge effort on Yamaha's part.

- Similarly - the number of Drum Kits, and Arpeggios, is staggering. Regarding all those Arpeggios - imagine MIDI exporting / recording them into Stephen Kay's GE software and converting them into Generated Effects for your Kronos - a gigantic new source of patterns for GE creation :-)


Overall, I'm a bit surprised at how complicate it all looks. It's a brand new approach, no doubt about it. I'm personally fatigued with huge synth operting systems - I still have about a 1000 pages or Karma documentation to read :shock: - so this will have to get to the back of the queue for now !!
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Post by SanderXpander »

Kevin, you're probably aware, but if you really need a looping envelope on Mod7 you can use the vector joystick one. I'm not sure how many you'd need at a time but that at least gets you part of the way there.

As for huge and deep, similar to the Oasys and Kronos, I'm sure it will all make sense and fall into place once you get basic navigation and structure down. You don't have to learn every new DAW entirely from scratch either, it's the same with synths.
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

Hi SanderXpander- I wasn't aware of that - thanks. I'm not sure it's the same, as on the SY77 each operator has its own envelope generator, and you can loop each envelope individually (and specify the loop points to be different for each one, give great scope for movement in the sound). But the Vector Joystick Envelope looping of MOD7 sounds sounds intriguing and I'll definitely check it out. I think Dan Philips pointed to another technique using the LFO's also - I need to search for his tip on the OASYS forums too and if I find it I'll point to it. Overall MOD-7 is amazing, so not having looping envelopes barely diminished its awesome capabilities.

agree regarding getting to know the fundamentals - though I am one for digesting the manuals (and it does slow me down because I spend too much time at that, being a complete nerd :roll: )
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Post by SanderXpander »

I haven't actually done much with it so I'm not sure how well it does as "ADSR style" envelope. But you can key sync it and loop through five or six points I believe. As long as you can set it as AMS somewhere or have it send out a useful CC# I think it could do some of the things you're missing.
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Post by jimknopf »

After a first read of the Montage reference manual I can't detect anything super-deep far and wide. It has less than 200 pages plus a synth manual of ~80 pages, compared to more than 1100 pages of the Kronos reference manual. That alone tells something about how broad and deep the functionality of both synths is in comparison.

What I like: the Montage really seems to have a convincing performance oriented concept (in contrast to the cluttered Motif structure), with a lot of modulation sources and targets available. Else, apart from possible complex FM programming, there's certainly nothing too deep or mysterious involved at all, as far as I can tell after my first read. And I think that's positive news for possible Montage users: getting a somewhat shorter learning curve than with the complex multi-engine, sequencer-including and sample-ready Kronos OS.

Richard Devine's bold statement now even looks more silly to me than ever, after checking the Montage documentation today.
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