Montage by Yamaha

Devnor · Post by **Devnor** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:02 pm

I have programmed many analog pads & leads in my Motif XF that sound as good as any VA out there. Blind listening with custom patches, I don't think anyone could actually tell the difference. A few years ago Scott Tibbs did a comparison between the Jupiter 80 and Jupiter 8. Had you not been able to see which synth he was playing, I think the attitudes about that youtube demo would be completely different.

People hear with their eyes almost as much as with their ears.

When I read criticisms of the Montage because it doesn't have a "proper VA" I just shake my head. Maybe some people have that need to see a picture of a classic analog synthesizer and that helps them appreciate the sound they are hearing. It's more "realer" to that listener. Maybe the VA sounds they want to create aren't possible on the originals. Then its no longer analog, its just a digital synth sound and the argument is invalid.

I stopped judging synths based on presets a long time ago. At some point, musicians will make it their own. What it comes down to is features and workflow. The possibilities of FM-X, motion control, AWM2 layering and VCM EFX within Montage have yet to be truly revealed.

Very soon, numerous players will march into Guitar Center, demo Montage and race home to let the internet how unimpressed & disappointed they are. But there will be others that buy it, make their sounds and ultimately create their own music with Montage. If we're lucky, we might be privileged to hear some of it.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:26 pm

Hugo wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:Unfortunately not - it doesn't have any sampling capabilities at all.
Thanks for responding, Kevin. But I was actually thinking about "remixing" midi data - a feature that is found in the Motif series and in the RS7000.

I searched the manual and can find no mention the work remix. In fact - the MIDI song recorder on board has absolutely no edit features at all - none!

That was firmly an almost happlily confirmed only two weeks ago in a new lengthy review of Montage by a Dutch Yamaha demonstrator with Sonicstate.com (as part of Musicmesse) - the demonstrator instantly confirmed to Nick at Sonicstate that although the MIDI 'sequencer' has 16 MIDI tracks for recording, it has absolutely no EDIT features on board at all - nothing! It's for capturing musical ideas / sketches on the fly, and noting else.

I can honestly sympathesise with anyone annoyed by that. To me it's not relevant because even on the many exisitng workstations in my setup including OASYS I use none of their sequencers and use Logic Pro, but many have given strong arguments here for desiring editing, pattern and song chaining and so forth - but alas none exist on Montage.

Given they went to the bother of putting a 160,000 note, 16 MITI track recorder on board, it seems to be a purposeful decision by Yamaha to NOT provide any edit features - and instead offer 16 MIDI and 16 Stereo Audio channels to DAW for all of that!

All of that accepted, it is highly unlikely that they are offering MIDI remixing.

Devnor · Post by **Devnor** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:55 pm

From day 1 Yamaha has been saying there is no sequencer. They call it a "performance recorder". So you hit record, press the keys, turn knobs and move sliders. It records everything. Then you upload the midi file to your DAW for editing. When you play the file from your DAW, it makes the sounds and adjusts the parameters just as you recorded them.

There isn't any good reason for being dead in the water because there is no onboard sequencer. Remember Montage is class compliant so you can sequence on your iphone/ipad via garageband by directly connecting to the USB port or any number of other sequencing apps including Cubase. Or use your computer. Or use your existing synth with sequencer by connecting a midi cable.

There's 50 or so folks upset about this. Everyone else is using their Computer, apple device or workstation such as a Kronos.

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:18 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Hugo wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:Unfortunately not - it doesn't have any sampling capabilities at all.
Thanks for responding, Kevin. But I was actually thinking about "remixing" midi data - a feature that is found in the Motif series and in the RS7000.

I searched the manual and can find no mention the work remix. In fact - the MIDI song recorder on board has absolutely no edit features at all - none!

That was firmly an almost happlily confirmed only two weeks ago in a new lengthy review of Montage by a Dutch Yamaha demonstrator with Sonicstate.com (as part of Musicmesse) - the demonstrator instantly confirmed to Nick at Sonicstate that although the MIDI 'sequencer' has 16 MIDI tracks for recording, it has absolutely no EDIT features on board at all - nothing! It's for capturing musical ideas / sketches on the fly, and noting else.

I can honestly sympathesise with anyone annoyed by that. To me it's not relevant because even on the many exisitng workstations in my setup including OASYS I use none of their sequencers and use Logic Pro, but many have given strong arguments here for desiring editing, pattern and song chaining and so forth - but alas none exist on Montage.

Given they went to the bother of putting a 160,000 note, 16 MITI track recorder on board, it seems to be a purposeful decision by Yamaha to NOT provide any edit features - and instead offer 16 MIDI and 16 Stereo Audio channels to DAW for all of that!

All of that accepted, it is highly unlikely that they are offering MIDI remixing.

Thanks for the confirmation, I was fearing this was the case. I think the Montage looks awesome, but it's just too expensive considering it doesn't have a full sequencer and sampler.
I've decided to get the MOXF instead.

ErnstDabest · Post by **ErnstDabest** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:10 am

Devnor wrote:Scott Tibbs did a comparison between the Jupiter 80...

Roland's Jupiter 80 is really the closest competition... closest comparable synth to the Montage.

Devnor wrote: Very soon, numerous players will march into Guitar Center, demo Montage and race home to let the internet know how unimpressed & disappointed they are. But there will be others that buy it, make their sounds and ultimately create their own music with Montage. If we're lucky, we might be privileged to hear some of it.

Trouble is, when we finally do hear it on records some would swear that it's the Jupiter 80.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:30 am

Devnor, a static sampled patch can sound like an analog synth or a VA, no problem. But if you really use the controllers of your analog or VA synth, it definitely has another kind of life to it, than sampled synth sounds have so far.

I myself have sampled some of my analog synth sounds into my Kronos for static use: nothing wrong with sampling synths. It's nice, for example, to be able to play a soft Moog sound as polyphonic pad on the Kronos. BUT: that doesn't mean that sampled synth sounds can completely replace the functionality and moving sonic character of analog or VA synths (though I admit that the possibilities of shaping sampled sounds are rising).

From the Montage demos I heard so far, I was stunned by some very smooth and warm souding, very well programmed FM sounds I really like. It would be hard for me to program or even tweak such FM sounds, though.

But all in all, I was completely underwhelmed by the Montage patches trying to deliver sampled synth sounds for genres like electronica, modern pop and classical synth contexts: as far as the demo patches showcased these. Generally I would prefer using well done VAs in such a synth hands down, anytime, for various reasons indicated above.

But I absoulutely agree that the Montage is a fine synth you can do A LOT of great music with, and some of the people who want it at it's price tag, will certainly do just that: make great music with it. No disagreement at all here. Like Derek and Sander, I also will enjoy the fun of testing one in a store (with my own headphones I know well), as soon as they hit the shelves.

Devnor · Post by **Devnor** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:29 pm

Hugo wrote: Thanks for the confirmation, I was fearing this was the case. I think the Montage looks awesome, but it's just too expensive considering it doesn't have a full sequencer and sampler.
I've decided to get the MOXF instead.

There is no user sampling on the MOXF. In this regard, it's identical to the Montage.

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:42 pm

Devnor wrote:
Hugo wrote: Thanks for the confirmation, I was fearing this was the case. I think the Montage looks awesome, but it's just too expensive considering it doesn't have a full sequencer and sampler.
I've decided to get the MOXF instead.
There is no user sampling on the MOXF. In this regard, it's identical to the Montage.

Yes, that's correct, but at this price, I'll accept the compromise with sample loading to flash memory

Mosquita Muerta · Post by **Mosquita Muerta** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:18 am

GregC wrote:
Mosquita Muerta wrote:
Bachus wrote: According to Yamaha research, people dont want all those tools a Kronos has to offer...

According to me, thats just Yamaha marketing talking, because yamaha can not create anything that comes close to having the processing power of the Kronos as long as they stick to their selfcreated processors..

Kronos use a very noisy fans...Yamaha use last technology....no fans blowing dust....instead, a very quite environment as it should, believe it or not, Kronos won't touch the Montage sound quality...not even closer.... cheers
thats your opinion. The Montage is not in customer hands, yet.

The Kronos fan debate is a very old debate and has mostly been fixed by an OS update.

GregC, the Montage is not in customer hands yet, true, but I was playing it for 4 days last january at the Namm at Anaheim, CA...Montage is pure new technology, no fans included, superb quite noise "0" and you will be surprise the audio and sound quality of this new beast, Korg will need to work hard next year to put something close to it, or you guys will still playing a vst of the ms-20 and polysynth replicas within the Kronos ?

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:25 am

Mosquita Muerta wrote:
GregC wrote:
Mosquita Muerta wrote:

Kronos use a very noisy fans...Yamaha use last technology....no fans blowing dust....instead, a very quite environment as it should, believe it or not, Kronos won't touch the Montage sound quality...not even closer.... cheers
thats your opinion. The Montage is not in customer hands, yet.

The Kronos fan debate is a very old debate and has mostly been fixed by an OS update.

GregC, the Montage is not in customer hands yet, true, but I was playing it for 4 days last january at the Namm at Anaheim, CA...Montage is pure new technology, no fans included, superb quite noise "0" and you will be surprise the audio and sound quality of this new beast, Korg will need to work hard next year to put something close to it, or you guys will still playing a vst of the ms-20 and polysynth replicas within the Kronos ?

I have never heard the fan of my Kronos2... Maybe when i try to hear it...

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:16 am

Since I like/need VAs and the Montage doesn't have one, I most certainly will continue to play the excellent MS20 and PolySix models in the Kronos.

I'll still check out the Montage though, always cool to play a new board by a major brand.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:40 pm

Mosquita Muerta wrote:
GregC wrote:
Mosquita Muerta wrote:

Kronos use a very noisy fans...Yamaha use last technology....no fans blowing dust....instead, a very quite environment as it should, believe it or not, Kronos won't touch the Montage sound quality...not even closer.... cheers
thats your opinion. The Montage is not in customer hands, yet.

The Kronos fan debate is a very old debate and has mostly been fixed by an OS update.

GregC, the Montage is not in customer hands yet, true, but I was playing it for 4 days last january at the Namm at Anaheim, CA...Montage is pure new technology, no fans included, superb quite noise "0" and you will be surprise the audio and sound quality of this new beast, Korg will need to work hard next year to put something close to it, or you guys will still playing a vst of the ms-20 and polysynth replicas within the Kronos ?

I did not know that, thanks. I will sell my Kronos and order the Montage immediately

burningbusch · Post by **burningbusch** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:08 pm

Yeah, I played the Montage at NAMM too. Nice board but I heard a lot of samples that came from all the previous generations of Motifs. Some new stuff but a lot of old. The Motif owners I know who played it at NAMM came back unsure if it was worth the upgrade. Time will tell.

The fan issue is an old complaint, rectified completely with the Kronos 2 and made a non-issue for all Kronos owners with OS 3.0.

Busch.

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:50 pm

burningbusch wrote:Yeah, I played the Montage at NAMM too. Nice board but I heard a lot of samples that came from all the previous generations of Motifs. Some new stuff but a lot of old. The Motif owners I know who played it at NAMM came back unsure if it was worth the upgrade. Time will tell.

The fan issue is an old complaint, rectified completely with the Kronos 2 and made a non-issue for all Kronos owners with OS 3.0.

Busch.

Personally if i was still a motif player, i would have loved the old stuff, backward compatibillity is very important so i can still use all my old performances while also have the shiny new stuff...

But if only half of the magic happens that happens after my Kronos took all its 2 minutes time to boot up, then it might be worth adding to the Kronos..

But it might take me severall days of testing to find out if this new technollogy is really so innovative as Yamaha wants us to believe, only time will tell... However i do think it might be easier to opperate.. Thats the only part that looks intuitive to me.

Mosquita Muerta · Post by **Mosquita Muerta** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:13 pm

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Montage by Yamaha

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