Montage by Yamaha

[Kevin Nolan]

So would I!

But - remember - we do know a lot about it. And - we're human - not robots - we're social!!

And surely Forums ARE the right place for niche / nerdy discussion

Also - you can be sure the they likes of Yamaha read forums the world over to get an impression of peoples' views, whether or not they will ever own one.


Finally (and I'm being serious here) - why not start a new thread titled "Montage owners discussion"?

[dluther]

So would I!

But - remember - we do know a lot about it. And - we're human - not robots - we're social!!

And surely Forums ARE the right place for niche / nerdy discussion

Also - you can be sure the they likes of Yamaha read forums the world over to get an impression of peoples' views, whether or not they will ever own one.

Finally (and I'm being serious here) - why not start a new thread titled "Montage owners discussion"?

Here's one: http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/vie ... d0d74a6ac0

... not sure it's necessary on a board dedicated to Korg users and instruments.

Ultimately, I'm with "dfahrner" on this issue mostly -- 21 pages of discussion on the Montage from people who haven't really heard or played it; most it is hardly what I'd call "encouraging".

I don't know how most of the people on this forum make music, but I have 11 keyboards and 12 modules, all from different manufacturers like Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil, Kawai, Alesis -- you get the picture. Each has its strength and brings something unique to the mix; if I had more money to spare I'd have more sound modules and keyboards.

I'm seriously considering a Montage because of the 8 operator FM engine. I don't think this is something currently done in software like FM8 where the extra operators are X/Y modulators (although I do know you can construct *any* algorithm with the FM8 operators), the FM engine on the Montage picks up where the SY series left off by allowing any of the AWM samples to be used as the tone generator for the operator. A Montage would allow me to retire my TG77 module, and I loves me some TG77. I'd really like to see a Montage module, because I need another keyboard like I need another nostril.

I believe its important to keep the fanboy rhetoric to a minimum, because it smacks of "Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge", and has all the high-minded reason of the "Tastes Great/Less Filling" debate. And if that holds no logic for you, then let's not forget the long and rich intertwined history Yamaha and Korg share, or at least acknowledge the simple truth that competition breeds innovation.

I'm hoping the Montage is successful, because an rebirth of the SY series might encourage a rebirth of the EX architecture. Imagine a synth that has the capabilities of this Montage with the addition of:

• Polyphonic VL synthesis, expanded with multiple operators and user-definable/editable articulations
  
  Enhanced AN analog modeling with additional oscillators containing a huge selection of dedicated waveforms (thinking CS-80, which is unique in the land of synths) in addition to AWM memory, additional LFOs and filter models, multi-segment envelopes

... you get the picture.

[fcoulter]

Completely agree with Jim Knopf. I won't be buying a Montage unless it's updated with proper workstation features.

I disagree, but that's because I don't see the need for TWO keyboards with proper workstation features. Unless you're planning on replacing the Kronos, then the two keyboards could work together.

[fcoulter]

I'm seriously considering a Montage because of the 8 operator FM engine. I don't think this is something currently done in software like FM8 where the extra operators are X/Y modulators (although I do know you can construct *any* algorithm with the FM8 operators), the FM engine on the Montage picks up where the SY series left off by allowing any of the AWM samples to be used as the tone generator for the operator. A Montage would allow me to retire my TG77 module, and I loves me some TG77. I'd really like to see a Montage module, because I need another keyboard like I need another nostril.

Are you sure you can use AWM samples as operators in the FM module? When I contacted Yamaha about the Montage, they said that it was not following in the SY line but as an expansion on the DX line, which would imply that only sine waves are available as operators. (Not that sine wave operators are a bad thing. I created wonderful sounds on my DX7 for years and years.)

[dluther]

. . . the FM engine on the Montage picks up where the SY series left off by allowing any of the AWM samples to be used as the tone generator for the operator. A Montage would allow me to retire my TG77 module, and I loves me some TG77.

Are you sure you can use AWM samples as operators in the FM module? When I contacted Yamaha about the Montage, they said that it was not following in the SY line but as an expansion on the DX line, which would imply that only sine waves are available as operators. (Not that sine wave operators are a bad thing. I created wonderful sounds on my DX7 for years and years.)

No, I blew that one. It looks like the Montage FM-X engine picks up where the FM engine of the FS1R left off, with 7 waveforms. From this Synthtopia article featuring Yamaha product specialist Blake Angelos:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/ ... an-a-dx-7/

7 Spectral Forms (DX7 = only sine). Angelos notes, “The Spectral Forms in Montage (Sine, All 1, All 2, Odd 1, Odd 2, Res 2) give you much more sonic possibilities as well. The All 1/2 are different types of sawtooth waveforms, Odd 1 and 2 are pulse or square type wave form and Res 1 and Res 2 give you a cool spectral resonance parameter to shift the harmonic peaks like a resonant filter.

Looks like I'm keeping my beloved TG77 after all.

[Derek Cook]

. . . the FM engine on the Montage picks up where the SY series left off by allowing any of the AWM samples to be used as the tone generator for the operator. A Montage would allow me to retire my TG77 module, and I loves me some TG77.

Are you sure you can use AWM samples as operators in the FM module? When I contacted Yamaha about the Montage, they said that it was not following in the SY line but as an expansion on the DX line, which would imply that only sine waves are available as operators. (Not that sine wave operators are a bad thing. I created wonderful sounds on my DX7 for years and years.)

No, I blew that one. It looks like the Montage FM-X engine picks up where the FM engine of the FS1R left off, with 7 waveforms. From this Synthtopia article featuring Yamaha product specialist Blake Angelos:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/ ... an-a-dx-7/

7 Spectral Forms (DX7 = only sine). Angelos notes, “The Spectral Forms in Montage (Sine, All 1, All 2, Odd 1, Odd 2, Res 2) give you much more sonic possibilities as well. The All 1/2 are different types of sawtooth waveforms, Odd 1 and 2 are pulse or square type wave form and Res 1 and Res 2 give you a cool spectral resonance parameter to shift the harmonic peaks like a resonant filter.

Looks like I'm keeping my beloved TG77 after all.

Not really.It looks like FM-X is based some of the FS1r architecture not all it (and even that assumption might be wrong). 88 algorithms, 8 op FM, with 7 spectral forms (one missing from the FS§1r count) sounds FS1r like, but formant synthesis/sequencing is completely AWOL.

And no RCM like the SY range. Strange when AWM and FM-X are present in the same synth again.

[Kevin Nolan]

So would I!

But - remember - we do know a lot about it. And - we're human - not robots - we're social!!

And surely Forums ARE the right place for niche / nerdy discussion

Also - you can be sure the they likes of Yamaha read forums the world over to get an impression of peoples' views, whether or not they will ever own one.

Finally (and I'm being serious here) - why not start a new thread titled "Montage owners discussion"?

Here's one: http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/vie ... d0d74a6ac0

... not sure it's necessary on a board dedicated to Korg users and instruments.

Ultimately, I'm with "dfahrner" on this issue mostly -- 21 pages of discussion on the Montage from people who haven't really heard or played it; most it is hardly what I'd call "encouraging".

I don't know how most of the people on this forum make music, but I have 11 keyboards and 12 modules, all from different manufacturers like Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil, Kawai, Alesis -- you get the picture. Each has its strength and brings something unique to the mix; if I had more money to spare I'd have more sound modules and keyboards.

The following is all going to read terribly nerdy and childish in a way, but I'd like to back up my point about the validity of this thread; so forgive the following seemingly immature comparison we all made as kids (my Fire-Engine is bigger than your Fire-Engine) - I don't mean it this way but here goes:

I'm passionate about Yamaha synthesizers. I've had 3 CS80s restored to better than new quality, and likewise own 2 CS40Ms, 2 CS70M's and 3 CS01 IIs. I also own and love a mint condition DX1, four SY77s, two SY99's, 2 TG77's, a VL1 and VL7 and 3 EX5's. I've been programming in AFM and RCM synthesis since 1990 and can program them quicker than I can write english (and I write a lot of that). I was also around to witness the dismantlement on line, limb-for-limb, of the EX5 in the late 90's; and Yamaha's resolute 'recoil' from synthesis which lasted until 2015.

So I feel I understand Yamaha synthesizers intimately, from programming, architecture and performance points of view.

So in this regard, I, like many thousands of Yamaha synthesizer owners and admirers, have been waiting year, after year, after year for Yamaha to finally get it's act together.

To some of us it looks like they have managed to do a pretty good job - and I feel we are squarely entitled to comment, from an educated and experience stand point, on the features of the instrument that connect with Yamaha's legacy, ethos, history and evolution.

But I'll repeat - THE purpose of forums like this is to trash out the issues. You do not need to type in the URL on your browser if you don't want to read the threads - there's no obligation for you to look - but - threads like this serve a purpose for the forum members, and ARE read by engineers, designers and marketing personnel from the synth manufacturer companies. If you're passionate about it and think it's important, you are entitled to express an opinion. That's the purpose of this forum.

You should not come on here and tell people to zip it - or cast dispersions over the quality of the conversation - ESPECIALLY since you then join in with your own post !

I recommend getting back on topic - Montage - and cut out the "comments about comments". If you don't like the thread, don't read it.

Otherwise (and perhaps the Moderator will deem it timely) - it might be worth locking this thread down. It seems to have served its purpose given this descent into squabbling over the value of the thread itself?

[JPWC]

thank Kevin.

I read this forum just to see comments and concern over new (and sometimes old) equipment that I am interested in. People who whine about things should be trashed, or Thrashed (Kevin?).

I, personnally, can not wait to get my hands on the Montage. Hell it's number three right now on my Sweetwater "wishlist". I want to replace my Kronos (orginial serial ~400) and get a minilogue first.

The offspring of the Motif and DX7 is going to be one good looking child!

As a Korg groupie, I believe we all owe some allegiance to Yamaha, they have helped Korg stay alive.

Those who don't know and those that can't have, should be careful to criticize, as they don't have a key to stand on, and those who do know, can tell.

Kevin, keep up the good work, and those who don't like should move on, (or just shut up).

[JPWC]

Oh, 21 pages, I think that infers there are many who want one, or at least want to consider owning one.

[SanderXpander]

I value the opinion of all players on this board and have no problem discussing the merits or failings of a new synth, even if they haven't played it. If the discussions were all about the quality of the violin sample it'd be different but as far as features and design go, I find it interesting to read the viewpoints of other players. That said, I look forward to playing one even if I'm not really in the market for it

[jimknopf]

I value the opinion of all players on this board and have no problem discussing the merits or failings of a new synth, even if they haven't played it. If the discussions were all about the quality of the violin sample it'd be different but as far as features and design go, I find it interesting to read the viewpoints of other players. That said, I look forward to playing one even if I'm not really in the market for it

+1

Having moderated a part of a forum myself years ago, it always amuses me, whenever people have problems facing the necessary tension of different or even opposing views, to go as far as asking those not sharing their views to shut up or move on.

The proper purpose of a forum is to discuss well known facts along with different views, opinions and wishes! So as long as everybody accepts basic rules of leaving personal attacks aside and staying non-offensive, you could rather apply the well known saying: "Who can't stand the (very limited) heat, should keep out of the kitchen."

@SanderXpander
I will enjoy checking one as well

[fcoulter]

From this Synthtopia article featuring Yamaha product specialist Blake Angelos:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/ ... an-a-dx-7/

7 Spectral Forms (DX7 = only sine). Angelos notes, “The Spectral Forms in Montage (Sine, All 1, All 2, Odd 1, Odd 2, Res 2) give you much more sonic possibilities as well. The All 1/2 are different types of sawtooth waveforms, Odd 1 and 2 are pulse or square type wave form and Res 1 and Res 2 give you a cool spectral resonance parameter to shift the harmonic peaks like a resonant filter.

Looks like I'm keeping my beloved TG77 after all.

I also found it interesting that the comparison was between the very first DX7 and not the last of the DX7s, the DX7IIFD.

On the other hand, I also was wrong in that it does use six different waveforms for the operators.

Although I'm not thrilled with the "different types of sawtooth" comment. I grew up on analog synths, and there's only one type of sawtooth, just like there's one type of sine, triangle, and square wave. Unless the two "All" waves are different in that one ramps up and one down. Won't change the harmonics, but there's more to an operator than harmonic content.

At any rate, FOR ME this keyboard will wait until I win PowerBall. Just not worth the money at the present time. Ask again in a few years.

[afr]

As a Korg groupie, I believe we all owe some allegiance to Yamaha, they have helped Korg stay alive.

Those who don't know and those that can't have, should be careful to criticize, as they don't have a key to stand on, and those who do know, can tell.

Yamaha is not a charity association, is a business company

So with Korg they did business and probably they had benefit
Talking about critics, I think that is correct to talk also about what people don't like o they don't agree

With montage Yamaha took some decision that some people don't like? People is FREE to disagree

[Ksynth]

Yamaha is showing a Montage development video. May be of interest to some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23bqJfg ... VideoSend3

[xp50player]

The owner's manual is online, though not the reference manual.

I think this is a worthwhile synth, after seeing the videos, but not for Kronos money. The biggest ommision for me in this price range is any kind of tonewheel modeling. The motion seq stuff:zzzzzz. How many live EDM keyboard players are there? This needs to be a player's synth, and the organs ain't happening. I would go $2k for just the FM-X half, keep the old legacy Motif samples you can't get rid of.