AL-1 vs King Korg

[Bertotti]

All in AL1 is rather a powerful modern synth of it's own character, than something suited to deliver classical analog sounds. If you take it as that, it is great - if you try to get classical synth sounds from it, you can forget most of that goal from my view.

i agree with you,

I compare the AL1 more to an access virus then a moog for instance. I totally agree that you can create all those modern sounds in the AL-1, i have programmed such a dance library for the AL-1 and i find the sounds better sounding and more powerful than on my virus ti (i never expected this to happen).

Classical analog patches always sounds to harsh in my opinion on the al-1, i think the filter is the cause of this, so i'm really curious if we see an al-1 library some day from someone that was able to create those smooth leads we know.

I am curious now that you are getting ready for a possible Al1 filter tutorial is this still true? Al1 is not great at the older analog sounds?
Thanks!

[danatkorg]

All in AL1 is rather a powerful modern synth of it's own character, than something suited to deliver classical analog sounds. If you take it as that, it is great - if you try to get classical synth sounds from it, you can forget most of that goal from my view.

i agree with you,

I compare the AL1 more to an access virus then a moog for instance. I totally agree that you can create all those modern sounds in the AL-1, i have programmed such a dance library for the AL-1 and i find the sounds better sounding and more powerful than on my virus ti (i never expected this to happen).

Classical analog patches always sounds to harsh in my opinion on the al-1, i think the filter is the cause of this, so i'm really curious if we see an al-1 library some day from someone that was able to create those smooth leads we know.

I am curious now that you are getting ready for a possible Al1 filter tutorial is this still true? Al1 is not great at the older analog sounds?
Thanks!

I'm not sure what could be meant by "harsh" with the AL-1 filter. That sounds like the wrong word to me, since objectively it's quite the opposite: very clean and pure, in ways that many VAs can only dream about. In comparison, the PolysixEX and MS-20EX are designed to have more grit and distortion. There's a place for both, I believe.

For those interested in making traditional analog synth sounds with the AL-1, I recommend looking through the recommendations under "Modeling vintage analog synths" in the Parameter Guide's AL-1 chapter, under 4–1: OSC Basic.

[Vlad_77]

I posted elsewhere that I am hesitant about the King Korg. It sounds like a great synth. But - and I have said that I just can't seem to come to grips with AL-1 (hoping Qui can do some tutorials - I'd pay) - but I truly believe that AL-1 IS capable of doing the classic analogs many crave. With that much power and multimode filters I cannot accept that AL-1 can't do Oberheims, Jupiters, Moogs, Prophets, and Arps. Actually I was thinking of a Solaris but again, I sense that AL-1 can cover that ground and without waiting for 8 months or so to take delivery on it.

I wonder though if maybe an approach would be to find a sound in AL-1 and get it somewhat close then add in MS-20 or PolySix for "finish."

Korg gave us a nice MOD-7 tutorial; I wish we had a tutorial for AL-1 as well, but, I am thinking this isn't in Korg's plans.

Still, I believe Kronos can do it!

Disclaimer: I might still pick up a KingKorg as the price is very very nice. I think my dealer will work with me if I pick up another Kronos at the same time; times are tight in Holland too.

Best,
Vlad

PS: Dan, I've looked at the Parameter guide and while a bit helpful, I am curious why Korg didn't feel that a more in-depth tutorial was warranted for AL-1 as it was for MOD-7. I guess you cannot answer this officially so take my comment as merely typing/thinking out loud.

[QuiRobinez]

I'm not sure what could be meant by "harsh" with the AL-1 filter. That sounds like the wrong word to me, since objectively it's quite the opposite: very clean and pure, in ways that many VAs can only dream about. In comparison, the PolysixEX and MS-20EX are designed to have more grit and distortion. There's a place for both, I believe.

Harsh is just a word to express the feeling, in my case it ment that whatever you do the sound will stay sharp as a knife and don't get that soft edge that people like me are used to when programming VA's when using the cutoff filters on the sound.

It's not a bad thing by the way, in my opinion the aliasing free osc's (and their harmonics combined with the chosen filter model makes the AL-1 stand out as a VA with it's own character. The only thing is that when you program a sound you expect a certain result based on previous experiences and the AL-1 has it's own character which is quite different. So it took a long time to understand the power and possibilities of the AL-1 and get the results i had in my mind.

For me the solution was the Multifilter, i was reading the manual till i came across a brief description of this (i really think the manual could use a couple of examples of this filter because that's an incredible filter!), after experimenting with it for a couple of hours i saw the possibilities it had, especially with the crossfade option in the filter.

I really like the sounds i have programmed now with the AL-1, they rival and some of them are even better then my other va's like the virus TI, JP8000, etc...

In my opinion the AL-1 is an incredible VA which has it's own character, the only thing is that it's really hard to master so i agree with the post above that mayby a few programming examples in the manual (just like the mod7 example) by an experienced Korg sound designer would be a great addon for the manual.

For those interested in making traditional analog synth sounds with the AL-1, I recommend looking through the recommendations under "Modeling vintage analog synths" in the Parameter Guide's AL-1 chapter, under 4–1: OSC Basic.

I've read that part in the beginning of my AL-1 knowledge quest, that was a really helpful part of the manual!

[jimknopf]

Dan, "harsh" is a word coming from a subjective impression. I have used exactly that word for results from AL-1 long before this thread. Even if I don't know how to translate it into technical data, I stick to this subjective impression for AL-1, as far as I got with this engine.

I also remember that this did not only concern my own efforts, but some efforts from other users as well. If I remember right, it was "synthguy" who made an effort to develop some well known classical patches on AL-1. When I listened to the results, my proposal to him was to try to make them sound "less harsh". Busch's careful rebuidling of orginal Prophet5 patches are certainly well done. Nevertheless they do sound harsh (and not close to the original) to me as well.

I am no expert sound designer. But I had and have no problems creating my own custom patches from scratch, or adjusting others to my liking, on my analog gear (only Moogs at the moment) or VAs like the Kingkorg or the Microkorg. I have done about a dozen own sounds on the Kingkorg in the few weeks since I own it, and they sound a lot like I wanted them to sound.

I never achieved something comparable with AL-1 in two years, despite reading the parameter guide with the useful information you mentioned. I also don't see much success of creating sounds close to some analog originals in the factory patches, and not even in additional sound packages sold, with very few (for my taste) useable exceptions.

So I can only agree with Qui, that a direct approach has not led me or others to expected results. I just was not expert enough to try what he tried (the multifilter adjustment). Even with that I have doubts that AL-1 will be able to sound as close to my favorite analog sounds as I wished. The Kingkong has a much "smoother/rounded" sound from scratch, no matter how I tweak it.

The fact that I can't deal with AL-1 does not take anything from it's power and versatile layout. I have big respect for what AL-1 is able to do!
But I hardly ever use it any more, simply because I don't get my desired analog-like sounds from it. In my everyday use, the KK (along with even the Microkorg to a degree) has completely replaced two extremely powerful synths, which nevertheless don't give me the sounds I like most: the Access Virus TI (no vivid smooth bottom and high range) and AL-1 (overall "harsh", not meaning distorted, but rather "brutal, edgy clean").

It's a weird situation: having all the synth power of advanced functions on these two (Access TI and AL-1), but the for my purposes much better sounds on the simple machines available (Moogs, KK, Polysix engine, Microkorg).

[SanderXpander]

To be honest even though I also have trouble getting AL1 to comply for more vintage sounding patches, its innate character makes it great for dance stuff. I use a very mildly adapted Techno Anthem Pad for a couple of modern dance songs and it's excellent, especially the filter.

[danatkorg]

Dan, "harsh" is a word coming from a subjective impression. I have used exactly that word for results from AL-1 long before this thread. Even if I don't know how to translate it into technical data, I stick to this subjective impression for AL-1, as far as I got with this engine.

I also remember that this did not only concern my own efforts, but some efforts from other users as well. If I remember right, it was "synthguy" who made an effort to develop some well known classical patches on AL-1. When I listened to the results, my proposal to him was to try to make them sound "less harsh". Busch's careful rebuidling of orginal Prophet5 patches are certainly well done. Nevertheless they do sound harsh (and not close to the original) to me as well.

I am no expert sound designer. But I had and have no problems creating my own custom patches from scratch, or adjusting others to my liking, on my analog gear (only Moogs at the moment) or VAs like the Kingkorg or the Microkorg. I have done about a dozen own sounds on the Kingkorg in the few weeks since I own it, and they sound a lot like I wanted them to sound.

I never achieved something comparable with AL-1 in two years, despite reading the parameter guide with the useful information you mentioned. I also don't see much success of creating sounds close to some analog originals in the factory patches, and not even in additional sound patches, with very few (for my taste) usdeable exceptions.

So I can only agree with Qui, that a direct approach has not led me to expected results. I just was not expert enough to try what he tried (the multifilter adjustment). Even with that I have doubts that AL-1 will be able to sound as close to my favorite analog sounds as I wished. The Kingkong has a much "smoother/rounded" sound from scratch, no matter how I tweak it.

The fact that I can't deal with AL-1 does not take anything from it's power and versatile layout. I have big respect for what AL-1 is able to do!
But I hardly ever use it any more, simply because I don't get my desired analog-like sounds from it. In my everyday use, the KK (along with even the Microkorg to a degree) has completely replaced two extremely powerful synths, which nevertheless don't give me the sounds I like for most of what I use: the Access Virus TI and AL-1.

It's a weird situation: having all the synth power of advanced functions on these two (Access TI and AL-1), but the for my purposes much better sounds on the simple machines available (Moogs, KK, Polysix engine, Microkorg).

Knowing these synths, you seem to be describing the more distorted ones as "smoother/rounded" and the clean one as "harsh." That just doesn't make sense to me, and implies some sort of fundamental misunderstanding.

Also - I totally agree that the Multifilter is cool; it's one of my personal contributions to the instrument. However, I don't think it's necessary to get traditional analog tones out of the AL-1.

I would be very interested to hear specific examples of the sounds you feel are better on the Microkorg, for instance.

[jimknopf]

Neither the analog Moogs nor the KK sound "distorted" to me.

"harsh", by the way, does not mean "distorted" to me. I rather meant "brutal, edgy clean" as opposed to "smooth".

I know it's a pain with expressions for subjective impressions, but I hope you understand what I mean.

[danatkorg]

Neither the analog Moogs nor the KK sound "distorted" to me.

Distortion (aka saturation, overdrive etc.), particularly at high resonance, is one of the distinguishing factors of the Moog sound.

I know it's a pain with expressions for subjective impressions, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Examples would be helpful.

My strong guess is that you just need a better starting point with the AL-1. It's very configurable, and must be configured to be vintage-sounding if that's what you're looking for. Perhaps I can help with that.

[jimknopf]

I could email you some patches from the KK which I don't expect to get in a comparably smooth way from AL-1.

You probably have a KK in reach, so I guess that is easier for you to compare than Moog Voyager patches.

I'm not at home over the weekend, but I could do that during next week.

P.S.
Just for clarity: We have a different use of the word "distortion". I know about saturation up to overdrive in Moogs, of course. But a normal Moog lead does not sound "distorted" to me, just the opposite: many do sound extremely warm and smooth as opposed to "distorted". So while you use "distortion" as technical term (distortion in a clean curve), to me distortion is conncted to distortion effects far beyond saturation, or to conscious use of overdrive. And "harsh" in my use is rather connected to "sharp, edgy" in an unpleasant way, than to fuzzy kinds of distortion.

[SanderXpander]

If you guys at any point can make this discussion/exchange public I'm sure not just I, but many others on here would be very grateful.

[levioter]

Dan thanks for your opinion.
As quoted below:

My strong guess is that you just need a better starting point with the AL-1. It's very configurable, and must be configured to be vintage-sounding if that's what you're looking for. Perhaps I can help with that

I think many of us will be very interrested in knowing the details of configuring AL-1 to much sound like analog vintage synth : Moog, prophet5, Oberheim, Yamaha cs80...
In my opinion AL-1 is really powerful and is able to sound close to those ancient analog giants.

Waiting for your tips.

Cheers

[QuiRobinez]

Also - I totally agree that the Multifilter is cool; it's one of my personal contributions to the instrument. However, I don't think it's necessary to get traditional analog tones out of the AL-1.

well thanks for adding that, i love that filter!

My strong guess is that you just need a better starting point with the AL-1. It's very configurable, and must be configured to be vintage-sounding if that's what you're looking for. Perhaps I can help with that.

that would be great to learn from a programming AL-1 discussion on this forum based on some examples.

so please have this discussion in public

[Scott]

I think I understand what Jim is trying to say. It seems paradoxical on the surface, but 70s analog synths that "suffered" from various kinds of distortion and grit are less harsh sounding than, for example, the "cleaner" 80s digital synths that followed. A good overdrive (like a tube, for example) doesn't make something sound "harsh," rather it often makes it sound "warm" and organic. (Think tube in a guitar amp, for another example). It is the clean, undistorted sound that seems "harsh" by comparison.

[danatkorg]

I could email you some patches from the KK which I don't expect to get in a comparably smooth way from AL-1.

You probably have a KK in reach, so I guess that is easier for you to compare than Moog Voyager patches.

I don't have a KK here; audio recordings would be better. Just single, sustained notes with no effects.