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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:07 am
by jemkeys25
you guys are missing it, you can't compare the kronos to a real piano, a real piano can only be duplicated by a real and physical piano, there is no substitute, and you'll need a 9' piano to sound the best.
the kronos represents the recorded piano sounds you hear in the recorded music of history, what people hear when they listen to thier favorite songs.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:40 am
by carmol
Bruce Lychee wrote:Zeroesque wrote:Bruce Lychee wrote:The Kronos doesn't even do sympathetic resonance
SGX-1 Overview
...
True damper resonance, also chromatically
sampled, with multiple velocity layers
As I said, it doesn't do sympathetic resonance.
I verified, its true!
What a disappointment! I assumed that the string resonance to be present!
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:26 pm
by aron
> What a disappointment
So what? Stop complaining and just play. I'm tired of this nitpicking on every little feature. Some keyboards implemented this as an effect (Yamaha) - you make like it's the end of the world.
This reminds me of when I was working for Opcode. We had the best sequencer at one point, and it did WAY MORE than anyone else. Yet people would constantly pick on the _one_ feature it didn't have ignoring the fact it did way more than anyone else.
If that one "missing' feature is that much of a disappointment, then don't get it. Just don't make like it's some incredible missing feature.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:12 pm
by carmol
aron wrote:> What a disappointment
If that one "missing' feature is that much of a disappointment, then don't get it. Just don't make like it's some incredible missing feature.
Yes its quite INCREDIBLE missing feature,
because it is in nord piano and stage, roland rd 700, fp7 and vpiano,
yamaha cp5, cp1, casio px3 bk, kawaii mp series,
even my GEM prp800 home digital piano and
GEM rpx 300 euros piano module have string resonance,
GEM promega in 2003 had string resonance!
And I miss the effect of resonance,
should I revert back to rpx to have it,
after spending more than 3000 euros ?
I expect that a beast with 10 GB with 8 layer full map unlooped
of piano samples, that makes of grand piano realism one of his
strengths, HAS string resonance...
So I didnt even check that feature (my fault)
because I thought it obvious !
If I knew about this missing feature
pheraps I didnt even buy it
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:24 pm
by X-Trade
Don't confuse damper resonance and string resonance.
many products (including Korg's) feature either sampled or modelled damper resonance.
but sympathetic resonance of strings is more difficult to model or sample (actually easier to model than sample) & I've rarely seen it advertised as a 'feature' on a product.
Kronos is also not a digital piano. Such a feature is great to have, but the Pianos are still pretty great without it.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:34 pm
by PianoManChuck
aron wrote:> What a disappointment
So what? Stop complaining and just play. I'm tired of this nitpicking on every little feature. Some keyboards implemented this as an effect (Yamaha) - you make like it's the end of the world.
This reminds me of when I was working for Opcode. We had the best sequencer at one point, and it did WAY MORE than anyone else. Yet people would constantly pick on the _one_ feature it didn't have ignoring the fact it did way more than anyone else.
If that one "missing' feature is that much of a disappointment, then don't get it. Just don't make like it's some incredible missing feature.
+1
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:40 pm
by carmol
X-Trade wrote:Don't confuse damper resonance and string resonance.
many products (including Korg's) feature either sampled or modelled damper resonance.
Kronos is also not a digital piano. Such a feature is great to have, but the Pianos are still pretty great without it.
I am not confusing it,
I am right speaking of string resonance:
without pressing damper, hold some keys
down at very low velocity; hitting the some notes
or 5th on higher octaves, the pressed keys play
harmonics, like free chords in a real piano.
I personally tested it on some keyboards.
Its not so hard to reproduce even with samples,
some old outdated and/or cheap product have it,
I wonder why korg has neglected that.
Well at least damper resonance is better than nothing.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:19 pm
by X-Trade
carmol wrote:X-Trade wrote:Don't confuse damper resonance and string resonance.
many products (including Korg's) feature either sampled or modelled damper resonance.
Kronos is also not a digital piano. Such a feature is great to have, but the Pianos are still pretty great without it.
I am not confusing it,
I am right speaking of string resonance:
without pressing damper, hold some keys
down at very low velocity; hitting the some notes
or 5th on higher octaves, the pressed keys play
harmonics, like free chords in a real piano.
I personally tested it on some keyboards.
Its not so hard to reproduce even with samples,
some old outdated and/or cheap product have it,
I wonder why korg has neglected that.
Well at least damper resonance is better than nothing.
I did check and the products you mention do feature this, I just forgot to mention it in my post.
It is a fairly special feature, was my point. It might be expected in a piano-specific product and it would be nice to have, but I'm sure Korg like myself don't see that it would be that important to many people. None of their previous workstations do it either.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:53 pm
by DavyP
jimknopf wrote:But I guess non of you is naive or cluesless enough, to believe that a modern synth workstation is built for classical piano players giving Rachmaninoff concerts?
EXACTLY.....
Can you put your baby grand in the back of a car and take it to a gig??
Can the baby grand sample? Link to your computer? Play organ sounds? drum sounds? Record audio? Create analog synth sounds etc.......
The Kronos is a music workstation covering a lot of bases extremely well.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:07 pm
by burningbusch
carmol wrote:aron wrote:> What a disappointment
If that one "missing' feature is that much of a disappointment, then don't get it. Just don't make like it's some incredible missing feature.
Yes its quite INCREDIBLE missing feature,
because it is in nord piano and stage, roland rd 700, fp7 and vpiano,
yamaha cp5, cp1, casio px3 bk, kawaii mp series,
even my GEM prp800 home digital piano and
GEM rpx 300 euros piano module have string resonance,
GEM promega in 2003 had string resonance!
And I miss the effect of resonance,
should I revert back to rpx to have it,
after spending more than 3000 euros ?
I expect that a beast with 10 GB with 8 layer full map unlooped
of piano samples, that makes of grand piano realism one of his
strengths, HAS string resonance...
So I didnt even check that feature (my fault)
because I thought it obvious !
If I knew about this missing feature
pheraps I didnt even buy it
I would double check those examples you stated. I owned the CP-1 and tested it and as I recall it does not have SR. It has a parameter for damper res. but not symp. res and I don't recall it in any of the specs. Some Yamaha's do have it and other do not. Funny thing is Roland has had it for years on the models you mentioned and no one seemed to even notice. I had to point it out to Roland users. It was only until Nord made a big thing about it did people suddenly think SR is a must have feature. Roland had it all along but like Roland's damper resonance it's an FX. You can determine for yourself whether things like damper resonance/string resonance is convincing as an FX or whether actual pedal down samples are better (Korg, Yamaha, most soft synths). I prefer actual samples.
Most soft synth piano engines do not support symp. resonance. Ivory was the industry standard without it and only added it with Ivory II.
I find it to be a subtle effect. In standard playing it's basically inaudible, at least on the Rolands. Damper resonance is much more important, IMO.
I'll have to check whether my Yamaha N3 has it.
Busch.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:14 pm
by burningbusch
If it's the kind of effect you need to test by doing a certain procedure with either headphones or speakers cranked and is not obviously audible in normal playing, it's a subtle feature in my book.
Busch.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:49 pm
by Bruce Lychee
burningbusch wrote:
I would double check those examples you stated. I owned the CP-1 and tested it and as I recall it does not have SR. It has a parameter for damper res. but not symp. res and I don't recall it in any of the specs. Some Yamaha's do have it and other do not. Funny thing is Roland has had it for years on the models you mentioned and no one seemed to even noticed. I had to point it out to Roland users. It was only until Nord made a big thing about it did people suddenly think SR is a must have feature. Roland had it all along but like Roland's damper resonance it's an FX. You can determine for yourself whether things like damper resonance/string resonance is convincing as an FX or whether actual pedal down samples are better (Korg, Yamaha, most soft synths). I prefer actual samples.
Most soft synth piano engines do not support symp. resonance. Ivory was the industry standard without it and only added it with Ivory II.
I find it to be a subtle effect. In standard playing it's basically inaudible, at least on the Rolands. Damper resonance is much more important, IMO.
I'll have to check whether my Yamaha N3 has it.
Busch.
I just want to point out that the implementation on the SN pianos is different then Roland's older piano sounds. I had the 700SX, Fantom G and now the Jupiter. The SN pianos use modeling on top of attack samples to generate sympathetic resonance. Personally, given the nature of sympathetic resonance, I think it is difficult to do it well with pure samples, which might be why it is omitted on the Kronos pianos.
In any case I think it is something that can be appreciated in a solo piano context, but not that really critical for a gigging tool. I don't think it is all that subtle when playing solo on a grand piano, but that isn't what I use the Kronos for.
They have done something interesting spectral tests on things like this over at Pianoworld for anyone interested.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:36 pm
by carmol
burningbusch wrote:carmol wrote:aron wrote:> I owned the CP-1 and tested it and as I recall it does not have SR.
Busch.
Yes cp1 have it,
you can check the DPBSD project,
on pianoworld forum.
Anyway, I discovered and appreciated
string resonance from GEM drake-based
digital pianos, years ago.
Hope that I will not miss it too much
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:51 pm
by burningbusch
carmol wrote:burningbusch wrote:carmol wrote:
Yes cp1 have it,
you can check the DPBSD project,
on pianoworld forum.
Anyway, I discovered and appreciated
string resonance from GEM drake-based
digital pianos, years ago.
Hope that I will not miss it too much
Fair enough. I did check out my N3 with headphones cranked and it has it. Haven't heard it until now.
Busch.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:03 pm
by Bruce Lychee
burningbusch wrote:carmol wrote:burningbusch wrote:
Fair enough. I did check out my N3 with headphones cranked and it has it. Haven't heard it until now.
Busch.
I had the CP1 too. I'm pretty sure it doesn't do key sympathetic resonance, which is what I'm talking about. It does pedal sympathetic resonance, which is damper resonance... Which the Kronos does, and does quite well.
I do want to point out that the Kronos pianos tested very well on the spectral tests... No looping, at least 7 visible velocity layers, good pedal sympathetic resonance.