I don't understand what's Factory and what's Extra

[nowtime]

Thanks Gargamel314 - very helpful to understand that one needs to load the multisamples and THEN load the appropriate PCG files (check that out when I get home). In fact your whole post is more informative than 1500 pages of manual in regards to this issue.

Still confused about user banks vs internal banks, HD vs EXs, does one have to discern "what kind of preset is this" when tweaking and saving as a new patch, if you don't want to overwrite the prog/combi?

I did check out the Voice Name List and found it interesting but not helpful. There are just lists, they do not explain how all these different types relate in regards to saving and loading (except in the EX4 it does say that 4 of the presets are preloaded - the clavis - so that was somehwat of a clue). Maybe I am making too big of a deal with this, but I wish I could just "see" the overall structure in my mind (or with my eyes would be even better).

Lastly, what do you mean by "You wiull have to figure out how to organize new programs that you decide to load up, or if you just want to deal with multiple PCG files for different program loadouts"?

[Shakil]

nowtime.... There are no programs / combination presets in KRONOS.... there are factory preloads, some slots are blank.... You can tweak/overwrite/modify any of them with your own sounds....

So, if you chose to keep your own sounds, you will have to manage the PCG files, since you are the only one who knows what you edited, and in case of a new OS, you will need the backup PCG of your own collection. So, you will have to keep an updated copy of the PCG and samples all the time. It's not like you will be able to download the sounds from KORG website and get it working again......

[BasariStudios]

Shakil, with all due respect for you and to you you are wrong, do not miss
inform the new people with Korg cuz they will take it as it is and me and you
both know better then that. Of course there is Presets in Kronos, as its says
on the synth itself, at least on mine, I-A or U-A...if one removes one of your
USER Programs as you call it...what happens to the combi that it was used in?
And so on...by your Analogy we actually pay 3000$ for an EMPTY SYNTH right?
If there is no USER or PRESETS or if the WHOLE thing is USER then that means
we get an EMPTY synth which we have a lot of work to do.
I started this Topic in good faith so someone can find it helpfull and actually
to clear somethings for me but most of the topics are from a BUNCH of EGO
driven people I KNOW THIS and I KNOW that even though the same people
still ask HOW DO I LOWER THE VOLUME ON A TRACK...i am out of this.

[aron]

I think the problem is how you look at it. There used to be ROM presets which were not overwrite-able. Now you have presets - pre loaded that can be erased by the user.

BTW: the problem with a combi/performance/multi is not a new problem. That's why librarians were invented. Some of them - like Galaxy (old program) used to manage the programs within a combi -ensuring that they will all play correctly.

I guess the problem is that there's no way to keep adding lots of user programs/combis without wiping out some that are there already.

[Sharp]

Hi Nedim

I think it's one of those situations where it depends on how “you” want to look at it. There are no presets on a KORG. Well, expect the GM Banks.

The content that comes from KORG preloaded into the KRONOS are factory sounds and sample expansion libraries. You can unload the PCM data for the Sample Expansions, but you cannot unload the PCM data for the factory sounds.

You still don't have presets as the bank references I or U technically mean nothing. There is nothing that locks you down to I= Internal and U=User. Everything is rewritable.

Again though, it all boils down to how the individual wants to interpret all this. Me.. I'd agree with Shakil on this one.

Regards
Sharp.

[BasariStudios]

Of course James, i look at it exactly the same way as you and Shakil do but
something still doesnt make sense...we end up paying for GM Bank only while
the rest can be written USELESS...i want Rich, or Dan or whoever from Korg
to explain to me how and where THE HELL would i save the Patches i create?
Inevitably i would have to erase one of the Factoy/User Banks...which i dont
even know anymore how to call it.
And for those who dont understand what PROGRAMMING means,
i am a professional Sound Designer and when i mention CREATE and PROGRAM
i dont mean TWEAK the DELAY on a Sound, i am talking about creating from
SCRATCH...which the advices on here TWEAK THE SOUND AND THEN STORE
IT IN THE SAME LOCATION dont work for me...James knows what i am talking
about...as i said, i dont mean Programing the Mainstream way, lowering the
Volume on a Sound, i mean a lot DEEPER then that.
And of course, i always sound rude and arogant cuz i dont put icing on cakes,
i just cut it down to the point as it is.

[BasariStudios]

the problem with a combi/performance/multi is not a new problem. That's why librarians were invented. Some of them - like Galaxy (old program) used to manage the programs within a combi -ensuring that they will all play correctly.

No, in this case not even programs like these can resolve my problems and
also few others on here which we constantly REALLY program sounds.
Reason? If i get a Bassline and Tweak its EQ (the mainstream understanding
of programming) i can comfortably resave that Patch in the same Location and
have no problem at all in the Combi that is used.
But when i open the INIT PROGRAM and turn AL-1 on and start from Scratch
(the real programming) after i am done with that Sound, where do i save it?
Oh i know, in the U-G Bank which is Empty...RESOLVED.
UPZ...i was wrong, i finished that one and now i turned an HD-1 INIT PROGRAM
and same thing, programmed it...what the hell am i gonna do now?
Just save it to an HD-1 Bank somewhere...right??? I guess...well the
COMBI that i PAID for now is screwed...and so on...
OH, Korg should stop advertising a 1GB or more RAM on Kronos, please?
At least stop lying to people, tell the truth, more customers will buy it
based on truth then lies. Free RAM means for OUR use not for KORG's use.
Well...do i make sense now? Of course i dont. Freedom and Rights fighters are called TERORISTS.

And here is the best scenario of a 3000$ machine...this is not an example:
I turned my U-G bank into EXi, not HD-1...now, where the HELL do i get an
INIT HD-1 PROGRAM to actually create an HD-1 Program? And after that
where the hell am i gonna save this??? Many of us have answers to every
possible question even though they dont even know what the hell are few of
us in here talking about...actually the ones that KNOW what they are talking about.

[aron]

>No, in this case not even programs like these can resolve my problems

Actually it can. Or rather could, if we actually had a competent editor/librarian.

>But when i open the INIT PROGRAM and turn AL-1 on and start from Scratch
(the real programming) after i am done with that Sound, where do i save it?

Well, you start with an init patch in the librarian with an AL-1 instance. Then you program it, and save it in the librarian. Now after saving it in the program bank, you can copy it into a library where tons of these programs are stored.

Now when you create your combinations, they tie to programs and when you assemble banks of combinations, then the appropriate programs are copied and you are alerted if you run out of program space.

>Oh i know, in the U-G Bank which is Empty...RESOLVED.
UPZ...i was wrong, i finished that one and now i turned an HD-1 INIT PROGRAM

Yes. Maybe there should have been 2 empty banks at least. One for HD-1 and one for EXI.

I understand what you are saying. At least the best part is that you are a real programmer and don't need to rely on factory presets to get your sounds.

One thing someone could do - IF they had a good librarian program. Decide on the combinations and programs that you like. Put them in libraries. Now, wipe the entire machine. Copy back the combinations - now you have all working combinations of only the ones you like. Now with the empty slots, copy back any good programs you require that have not been copied back.

[Scott]

I think all vendors deal with the issue of "We have X programs to deal with. We can leave half of them empty, for people to put their own sounds into them, but then people will complain that we could have filled them up with additional interesting sounds they could use; or we could fill them up and people will complain that they can't save anything new without erasing something." No matter how many or few you fill or leave blank, someone will complain.

But what I think is most valid here is, you could come across a program that makes you think "I can't imagine I'd ever use this" and erase it, and then some combi gets affected that you didn't realize was related, that maybe had used that patch in some way that you had not anticipated.

There should be some mechanism to communicate whether a Program is used in any Combis. For example, there could be a command on the Program screen to "Show Combis That Use This Program" and you could see a list of them and audition them. And there could also be an option to delete all those combis when you delete the program.

That would be ideal. But short of that, even some indication on a Program page that a given program was or was not used in any Combis would be a start, at least you would know that some are definitely safe to delete. Or is there some way to see this that I missed?

EDIT: This rang a bell and I just relocated the very useful topic at
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=62656
(where I actually made the same kind of suggestion, sorry for the dupe), and that chart is a great start... but of course, it is static and starts losing its usefulness if you are no longer strictly using the factory supplied Programs and Combis. Maybe this will at least be addressed in the editor/librarian we may see at some point...

[michelkeijzers]

I think all vendors deal with the issue of "We have X programs to deal with. We can leave half of them empty, for people to put their own sounds into them, but then people will complain that we could have filled them up with additional interesting sounds they could use; or we could fill them up and people will complain that they can't save anything new without erasing something." No matter how many or few you fill or leave blank, someone will complain.

But what I think is most valid here is, you could come across a program that makes you think "I can't imagine I'd ever use this" and erase it, and then some combi gets affected that you didn't realize was related, that maybe had used that patch in some way that you had not anticipated.

There should be some mechanism to communicate whether a Program is used in any Combis. For example, there could be a command on the Program screen to "Show Combis That Use This Program" and you could see a list of them and audition them. And there could also be an option to delete all those combis when you delete the program.

That would be ideal. But short of that, even some indication on a Program page that a given program was or was not used in any Combis would be a start, at least you would know that some are definitely safe to delete. Or is there some way to see this that I missed?

EDIT: This rang a bell and I just relocated the very useful topic at
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=62656
(where I actually made the same kind of suggestion, sorry for the dupe), and that chart is a great start... but of course, it is static and starts losing its usefulness if you are no longer strictly using the factory supplied Programs and Combis. Maybe this will at least be addressed in the editor/librarian we may see at some point...

Exactly this functionality is one feature of PCG Tools, which I created initially purely for that function.

You can read in your own PCG file and it creates a complete list (or sub list) of all programs and where they are used. You even can see which programs/combis are used in which set lists (and a lot more).

[michelkeijzers]

In addition to the post above, would it be interesting to have a function in PCG Tools to add a character/symbol as last character that describes if the program is used in a combi ... or maybe even in which if it would fit). So Kronos Grand would be renamed to 'Kronos Grad *'.

[Scott]

Exactly this functionality is one feature of PCG Tools, which I created initially purely for that function.

That's great! I even HAVE your program, and haven't actually tried it yet... in fact, I got it with the intention of doing some stuff on my old M50, and I think it didn't even occur to me that, duh, I could use it on the Kronos!

In addition to the post above, would it be interesting to have a function in PCG Tools to add a character/symbol as last character that describes if the program is used in a combi ... or maybe even in which if it would fit). So Kronos Grand would be renamed to 'Kronos Grad *'.

Oh yes, I would definitely like that!

[michelkeijzers]

Exactly this functionality is one feature of PCG Tools, which I created initially purely for that function.

That's great! I even HAVE your program, and haven't actually tried it yet... in fact, I got it with the intention of doing some stuff on my old M50, and I think it didn't even occur to me that, duh, I could use it on the Kronos!

In addition to the post above, would it be interesting to have a function in PCG Tools to add a character/symbol as last character that describes if the program is used in a combi ... or maybe even in which if it would fit). So Kronos Grand would be renamed to 'Kronos Grad *'.

Oh yes, I would definitely like that!

You can use it on both the Kronos and M50.
I will add the last item to the wish list.

[trshade]

I am having trouble loading the ex3 brass from the internal disc. I load the .KSC file and the .PCG file and it all the extra brass and woodwind sounds at the UG location. BUT many of the other sounds no longer work like the German Grand, there is a message saying sample not loaded.

These are only extra samples loaded and I verify there is plenty of RAM left prior to loading the ex3 (it says there is 1 GB left)

Rebooting the kronos restores the piano and other sounds because the preload file runs.

I tried this 3 times with same results. What am I missing here

Thoughts, suggestions, I still have not comprehended how this works.

thanks