Curios - and a great pity

cello · Post by **cello** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:59 pm

Kevin - magnificently and eloquently well put.

That's exactly what I've been banging on about - and why. And why I will keep doing it.

It's one thing to have mislead and disrespect an existing customer base, but it adds insult to injury to then mislead and disrespect a new user group.

You're quite right - it is all quite stomach-churning and distasteful - something that I thought I would never think of Korg.

I guess that's commerce - they're in business to make money. Anything else (like treating customers honestly) doesn't count.

Your exercise with your sister produced exactly the same result as the one I did with my wife - she thought the same.

Pieter Meij · Post by **Pieter Meij** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:03 pm

Maybe my thoughts are absurd or even paranoid...but I will give it a try...

Could it be that Korg is not referring to the Oasys just once to avoid some nasty legal actions from us Oasys-customers....It is just guessing but maybe there is some law out there to protect customers for the following scenario:
"If a manufacturer (Korg) introduces an equal or similar product (Kronos) based on the same technology within a certain amount of time after discontinuing the previous product (Oasys) at a much lower price than that manufacturer should compensate the owners (us) of the previous product"

Maybe this is crazy thinking....but it is the only thing I can come up with....and if there exists such a law...well...if I was Korg I would do anything that prevents them from such financial disaster....that means: don't connect the two products (Oasys and Kronos) in whatever way...they are just two different products.

What do you think...am I talking bs here or could it be that there is some truth in the above?

Best regards,

Pieter

CfNorENa · Post by **CfNorENa** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:05 pm

TagPass wrote:It also appears to be shaping up that way for the potential user-base too! Check out the comments on Harmony Central, Gearslutz, Sonic State. Everyone's jazzed up about this "fantastic new" STR-1, and "finally, someone releases an FM synth!" I'm finding it quite amusing, albeit a little surreal.

The most humorous thing is how everyone is saying how fantastic it sounds. Wasn't the OASYS "just a Triton on steroids" a couple years back? Now it sounds awesome!

KRONOS is like the ANTI-OASYS.

Chalk it up to human nature (Oasys unaffordable to most, so it was bashed; Kronos within reach, so it's being lauded) and the general idiocy of the internets. And a great reminder not to take all of this too seriously!

cello · Post by **cello** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:48 pm

@ Kevin OFFTOPIC (sorry)

Just want to say how grateful I am for your sonic oasis that is keeping me calm, and keeping me loving my O, which is the KN Ethnic Harp 2.

Wonderful!

Okay, back ON...

Hedegaard · Post by **Hedegaard** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:27 pm

Pieter Meij wrote:Maybe my thoughts are absurd or even paranoid...but I will give it a try...

Could it be that Korg is not referring to the Oasys just once to avoid some nasty legal actions from us Oasys-customers....It is just guessing but maybe there is some law out there to protect customers for the following scenario:
"If a manufacturer (Korg) introduces an equal or similar product (Kronos) based on the same technology within a certain amount of time after discontinuing the previous product (Oasys) at a much lower price than that manufacturer should compensate the owners (us) of the previous product"

Maybe this is crazy thinking....but it is the only thing I can come up with....and if there exists such a law...well...if I was Korg I would do anything that prevents them from such financial disaster....that means: don't connect the two products (Oasys and Kronos) in whatever way...they are just two different products.

What do you think...am I talking bs here or could it be that there is some truth in the above?

Best regards,

Pieter

Interesting thoughts.
My thoughts was on a similar path, to file a lawsuit against Korg about the promised Exf (which was never delivered), because to "whine" about it here (As I do) will probably not help at all.

I'm still thinking.....

closedbell · Post by **closedbell** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:18 pm

The message is clear, they want to make the oasys nimbus, i.e. the best
workstations etc. but unreachable financially, as an inducement to buy this
new machine. For me it is a disaster, as I pay the last sum of the deferred payment next month, then finally the O belongs to me, and maybe drops in price.ok.
But be carefull to mix up the soul of the machine with its price.The O had
its time and in case of optimization it could not be produced for decades and
filled up with goodies. It had its price, so if anything is cheaper, it will sound
cheaper, because something was reduced. I would not exchange my Oasys
for a Kronos, because I´m glad to have this delusion of grandeur here in my
little studio, even if I had to work hard for it. there will never be any digital
machine sound good or better or what else than the real thing, a piano is a piano, and your ears cannot betrayed when you sit in front of it, but your eyes can be fooled,your nose can be fooled even your tonque can be fooled. What also is the worth of all this products. So fellows, sit back on the hill and make music, this god is made of tin.

cello · Post by **cello** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:34 pm

closedbell wrote:The message is clear, they want to make the oasys nimbus, i.e. the best
workstations etc. but unreachable financially, as an inducement to buy this
new machine. For me it is a disaster, as I pay the last sum of the deferred payment next month, then finally the O belongs to me, and maybe drops in price.ok.
But be carefull to mix up the soul of the machine with its price.The O had
its time and in case of optimization it could not be produced for decades and
filled up with goodies. It had its price, so if anything is cheaper, it will sound
cheaper, because something was reduced. I would not exchange my Oasys
for a Kronos, because I´m glad to have this delusion of grandeur here in my
little studio, even if I had to work hard for it. there will never be any digital
machine sound good or better or what else than the real thing, a piano is a piano, and your ears cannot betrayed when you sit in front of it, but your eyes can be fooled,your nose can be fooled even your tonque can be fooled. What also is the worth of all this products. So fellows, sit back on the hill and make music, this god is made of tin.

First post - and wow, so poetic!

You make a valid point - Kronos is born from OASYS, yes - but it's a cheaper copy... What we do know is that there will probably never be an instrument like it ever again. I am proud to have one and will always use it for as long as it works...

But Korg has not been honourable. They know it and we know it. And even when they COULD do something about it, they remain silent.

Silence speaks volumes, remember.

closedbell · Post by **closedbell** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:21 pm

Oasys is -The Sound of Silence- now!
Sorry Cello,for being too poetic this evening, I saw the presentation video
(50 minutes on youtube), and really, I was not too much impressed. You know that it is hard to play an instrument on which everything is provided
and not to feel yourself being a solo-entertainer. But thats the way it is.
Music is inflationary and the next invention will be a robot who plays the
music (maybe be pressing the ominous F Knob) after checking the mood
the audience is in, in a pheromen algorythm. That´s the way karma must
go and will. And that´s in the price for the kronos. So what could Korg
do for us? Give money back for promises they could not hold? then I must get xthousands back from Apple, because I joint in helping them to be
No.2 now in the world, which 15 years back if somebody said that would have been ridiculous. Ok. if they want to be reputable, then they give at least
new sounds. Why not those of the Kronos?

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:58 am

cello wrote:@ Kevin OFFTOPIC (sorry)

Just want to say how grateful I am for your sonic oasis that is keeping me calm, and keeping me loving my O, which is the KN Ethnic Harp 2.

Wonderful!

Okay, back ON...

Thanks Cello - appreciated.

On topic - it's surely natural to feel like our nose is a little out of joint with the release of Kronos and especially its new features. But that will pass. If Sharp is right on his thread and Korg's lack of mention of OASYS is purely a pragmatic one; perhaps there will be a good will gesture from them such as Martin suggests - unlocking existing EXi's.

In any case, as you hint at - OASYS is still awesome - it surpasses Kronos in it's existing engines through greater voice count / CPU power. But the challenge is the same - to make great music, and OASYS affords everyone of us the opportunity to do that. At $4000, a Kronos 88 is not cheap - and whichever instrument we own, we are very, very fortunate, in the greater scheme. Again I'll say it - if OASYS is good enough for Herbie Hancock, it's good enough for me. It's awesome in its capabilities and none of that has changed. Overall, Kronos is a massively positive move - it vindicates our advocacy that OASYS technology is exquisite; it provides this to many, many music makers and it pushes the boundary - I really hope for example that Yamaha realise now that their abandonment of the synthesizer is untenable. If they do, it will have been Kronos (and OASYS) that pushed for a better future for hardware synthesizers and workstations - a win-win.

So ultimately there is nothing to feel downhearted about what OASYS currently is - anyone who pushes OASYS to the limit will surely have achieved great things in music?

Kevin.

MartinHines · Post by **MartinHines** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:46 am

Kevin Nolan wrote: Martin -

I would, for starters, expect a company to be honest. Korg are promoting Kronos synth engines as if they are new.

Kevin,

I guess we will have to "agree to disagree". I don't see Korg not mentioning the OASYS in Kronos promotion as "lying". They are marketing the Kronos in the most advantageous way they know how.

Also, I don't see Korg specifically claiming each of the nine engines are "new" (looking at the Korg website). I see them mention "EP-1" as new but "new" is not mentioned in relation to the CX-3, HD-1, AL-1, MS-20, Polysix and STR-1.

In fact, the AL-1 description mentions it was developed for the OASYS!! There is your OASYS reference!! (OK< only one, and it was small).

Marketing is all about presenting the product in the best light possible. When Korg marketed the OASYS, they focused on the new technology. They did not mention that many (if not all) of the OASYS effects were the same as in the Triton series. Was that "lying" because they did not mention it? Korg also did not mention that the OASYS sequencer and Open Sampling were taken from the Triton.

I understand people's anger/disappointment with Korg for dropping new OASYS development faster than most people had assumed. I suspect your bad feelings about Korg not mentioning the OASYS connection is related to that. However, I think Korg is simply trying to maximize enthusiasm about the Kronos, and not trying to deceive people or purposely anger OASYS owners.

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:32 am

Hi

KORG is promoting only 2 synth engines as new, then, they are not lying.

Mention or not the OASYS its just a bussines decision.

I think that mention it on the webpage its clever, almost all the users with some time on the bussines know something about the OASYS and a lot would like that quality on an affordable worstation.

But on the society debut, you dont wanna say that the new product is the son of the Titanic.

When a product it's successful, on marketing you could use it as a reference for their successor

But associate the new product with a commercial failure, its like a suicide.

Regards
Alvaro.

SoulBe · Post by **SoulBe** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:23 pm

Hi Kevin,

as always a very good post from you with deep thoughts.

But one more thought:

OASYS was presented as an open system, so if Korg would call Kronos a derivat, follower, OASYS XF or something, everybody would expect the Kronos to have future developments etc.

On the other hand Korg may see OASYS and the -still given- possibility of including further improvements/engines still as a class of its own.

best regards
SoulBe

Hedegaard · Post by **Hedegaard** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:33 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote: anyone who pushes OASYS to the limit will surely have achieved great things in music?
Kevin.

Or it ends up in one hell of a racket in some nuSkool styled noise!

Dr. Who · Post by **Dr. Who** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:49 pm

TagPass wrote:Check out the comments on Harmony Central, Gearslutz, Sonic State. Everyone's jazzed up about this "fantastic new" STR-1, and "finally, someone releases an FM synth!" I'm finding it quite amusing, albeit a little surreal.

The most humorous thing is how everyone is saying how fantastic it sounds. Wasn't the OASYS "just a Triton on steroids" a couple years back? Now it sounds awesome!

KRONOS is like the ANTI-OASYS.

I guess they never looked at the ultra cheap Alesis Fusion. It had/has an FM engine and physcial modeling (reed and wnid) but no string engine. I for one never got jazzed up for trying to create guitar sounds on my OASYS, I use software for that and the O or any hardware synth can't compare (same for orchestral). But STR-1 can create some great funky out of this world sounds. A lot of those guys on GS just give me a chuckle. Everything is about the gear you have and not so much about the music you actually have. Ok off my soapbox and back on topic...

Dr. Who · Post by **Dr. Who** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:14 pm

Ok so I think I share the sentiments of others on the board. The move to not mention OASYS was purely marketing driven. I'm an OASYS owner and have I felt slighted... yes! Big time. Do I feel slighted now... at first yes, but I've moved on. So why no mention of the OASYS? It was a huuuge failure of Korg. They produced an instrument so far ahead of its time. Look at it this way, can you believe it's 2010 and this is the new big thing on the market and many of us have been tracking with it for years! It's like if we were using Fairlights in 1977. As much as we love our OASYS, it was a failure. It was not the game changer; everyone was not lining up to own an OASYS. YOu can argue the word "failure" but if this is your flagship and you barely sell 3,000 of them... it's a failure. The overpriced Fairlight garnered a huge following among professional artist. everyone who was making hit albums had one even though it had an enormous price tag. This did not happen with the OASYS.

The name OASYS is Open Architecture, of which we had to pay a stiff fee for new updates and there weren't many. It’s all marketing and politics. At a press conference if Korg unveiled its newest big thing and mentioned it's an updated OASYS the two first questions would be, "OASYS?? When did that come out?" "OASYS oh yeah wasn't that your open architecture instrument that was future proof? So whatever happen to your future proof synth?" If you work as Cuba Gooding’s agent you might not introduce him as, "You remember this guy from the unforgettable and fantastic film... Daddy Day Camp!" Probably not, you'll introduce him and mention his Oscar performance in Jerry Maguire. If you are upset at Korg saying that this is not a game changer it's just a closed system OASYS repackaged and with updates. If marketed correctly, this is a game changer. A streaming SSD if huuuuge for synths in general. This opens the doors to great possibilities. If you have used any large sampling engines like Kontakt or Vienna SL you know how powerful disk streaming can be. If the technology progresses this could be something incredibly special from Korg. And... as a testament to how ahead of it's time the OASYS was... you have those same OASYS engines. If those engines aren't that great, pout them head to head with Roland and Yammy. They are plenty good for a workstation. That is what they are marketing and affordable workstation that gives you the bang of their previous failed flagship with updates and disk streaming. In no way would you wanted to mention it's failed lineage. It would allow all NON OASYS owners to form a negative opinion about Korg and (they never delivered on open architecture for the OASYS, isn’t the OASYS discontinued, it’s just repackaged OASYS tech), as some of the OASYS owners have. By mentioning how much of the Kronos is OASYS you will very quickly fail to realize the importance of what is new and not OASYS i.e. disk steaming new engines etc. You might say why would I trust a company like Korg. I’ll just buy a Muse Receptor and the VI’s till the cows come home. It's all about marketing and smart business.