Korg Forums

SanderXpander wrote: Isn't that just a difference of mindset rather than practical use? Yamaha has (as far as I know) far fewer "user writable" locations. So you could dedicate two banks (to equal your 256) purely to sequencer/combi sounds and put whatever you need there. Then you still have over 2500 user writable locations for your other programs. As far as I understand you, if you were to send a song (with sounds) to someone, you would overwrite his "mix voices" when he loads the song.

I don't think there is a real difference except in perceived limitations. If Korg would cut off two banks and reserve them for song/combi sounds, wouldn't you end up with the same thing?

Sounds right to me.

SanderXpander wrote:

StephenKay wrote:

SanderXpander wrote:Don't you effectively have nearly 3000 of these "mix voices" in Kronos? I'm not sure I'm grasping the difference.

The difference is - it doesn't touch your program banks. At all. The edited programs "stay with" the songs/combis. No need to tie up a Program location in a Program Bank for one edit you did one time for some song, only to be wondering later why do I have this program here - when you're no longer even loading the song.

Furthermore, I could supply a combi or song to another user with edited voices, without having to touch his program banks. Which is what I do with Yamaha Songs - I have edited mix voices in them to customize the sound, and yet I don't have to overwrite the User's Program Banks.

Isn't that just a difference of mindset rather than practical use? Yamaha has (as far as I know) far fewer "user writable" locations. So you could dedicate two banks (to equal your 256) purely to sequencer/combi sounds and put whatever you need there. Then you still have over 2500 user writable locations for your other programs. As far as I understand you, if you were to send a song (with sounds) to someone, you would overwrite his "mix voices" when he loads the song.

I don't think there is a real difference except in perceived limitations. If Korg would cut off two banks and reserve them for song/combi sounds, wouldn't you end up with the same thing?

No. The Yamaha Mix Voices are a "hidden global pool" that is dynamically managed by the system. You don't have to think about it. If you just load a single song with edited voices, for example, they go "somewhere" and it all just works. You don't have to separately load the edited programs one by one, or a bank of programs, in order to make the song work. You don't see them anywhere, except inside the song they are associated with. With what you are saying, you have to "manage" your use of those two dedicated banks all the time, clearing out old material, trying to remember why it's in there in the first place.

Anyway, IMO, ideally a combi or song would have memory space for 16 fully edited programs. But since this is impractical, and much of that memory would be wasted since often combis or songs might have very few or no edited programs, a system like Yamaha's actually works. After having used it extensively, I can see the benefits and it's been very helpful. But I can see that it might be hard to imagine how it works without actually using it.

StephenKay wrote: No. The Yamaha Mix Voices are a "hidden global pool" that is dynamically managed by the system. You don't have to think about it.

What happens when you try to load a song that requires a 257th "Mix Voice?" My guess is that you'd need to think about it then. Unless of course the Motif can't have more than 16 songs loaded at once. The limited number also wouldn't be much of a solution for the Kronos, with 1,792 Combis and over 28,000 Timbres in those Combis (each of which could, theoretically, use a different Program).

The automatic management does seem like a nice touch. However, for a more complex & powerful system such as the Kronos, with the built-in SSD etc., it seems fairly clear and deterministic (imo) to use a bank or two for scratch sounds and just load a complete file from disk when changing projects.

I also agree that it would also be best to be able to store edits locally in a Combi or Song, as opposed to using references. Perhaps that will be possible in the future.

danatkorg wrote: I also agree that it would also be best to be able to store edits locally in a Combi or Song, as opposed to using references. Perhaps that will be possible in the future.

Imagine a world where combis and songs always work! Please do consider self contained combis and songs.

B

It seems really simple to me to keep a set bank or two for song programs. You could save them with the song if you like. There are also issues with setting a 16 programs per song limit. What if you use program changes to select different sounds during the song? Even many downloadable midi files do this. Also, what happens if you like an edited sound in a song so much you want to use it as a program? I'm assuming you can save it to a program bank but at this point the difference between the Korg and Yamaha point becomes pretty trivial.

I do agree is that it would be nice to save a song with its used programs a little more elegantly. Like, Kronos would figure out which programs are used in a given set of songs and it would save those to a bank of your choice. And load a song with just those programs, similar to the new selective sample loading. Of course, for this purpose, it would first need to be made possible to save EXi and HD1 sounds to a single bank. With the coming of the new OS that seems one of the few old idiosyncrasies left.

I just don't like the approach of a rather limited set that is hidden from normal use.
Meh, in the end, unless you have a lot of combining and sorting to do it's just way quicker to load an entire PCG anyway.

michelkeijzers wrote:

danatkorg wrote:No change re Program storage; if you edit the Program, you need to store it. (Storing Programs in Combis would require a lot more memory.)

Please consider the next ideas:
- Make the number of programs per bank variable (e.g. bank U-A000 contains 50 programs, bank U-B 350 etc). Programs can be deleted/inserted making the bank size bigger/lower.

Surely that would cause all kinds of nightmares with MIDI program change numbers etc?

danatkorg wrote: What happens when you try to load a song that requires a 257th "Mix Voice?" My guess is that you'd need to think about it then.

I never said 256 was enough. In fact, I said it wasn't.

Unless of course the Motif can't have more than 16 songs loaded at once.

Oftentimes, you only need one or two edited programs in a song. That's why the global pool makes sense, since you aren't storing empty space for 16 edited programs with each combi/song.

The limited number also wouldn't be much of a solution for the Kronos, with 1,792 Combis and over 28,000 Timbres in those Combis (each of which could, theoretically, use a different Program).

This ignores the fact that most of those combis wouldn't have any edited Programs, since they would be factory voicing and could refer to Factory Programs. It would mainly be an advantage for the user creating edits and custom combis/songs.

Someone mentioned the concept of a pool of memory for program edits. I simply pointed out that it's similar to the method that Yamaha uses, and that it has some advantages. If others don't see the benefit of having edited programs specifically tied to a song or combi such that you don't have to independently manage the associated edited programs, I can't explain it any better. If you like what you've got, great!

The Kronos doesn't have presets the way Yamaha does. There are factory presets but since every location is user modifiable you can't count on factory presets being there, so what Dan says is correct with regards to the numbers required.

SanderXpander wrote:

StephenKay wrote:

SanderXpander wrote:Don't you effectively have nearly 3000 of these "mix voices" in Kronos? I'm not sure I'm grasping the difference.

The difference is - it doesn't touch your program banks. At all. The edited programs "stay with" the songs/combis. No need to tie up a Program location in a Program Bank for one edit you did one time for some song, only to be wondering later why do I have this program here - when you're no longer even loading the song.

Furthermore, I could supply a combi or song to another user with edited voices, without having to touch his program banks. Which is what I do with Yamaha Songs - I have edited mix voices in them to customize the sound, and yet I don't have to overwrite the User's Program Banks.

Isn't that just a difference of mindset rather than practical use? Yamaha has (as far as I know) far fewer "user writable" locations. So you could dedicate two banks (to equal your 256) purely to sequencer/combi sounds and put whatever you need there. Then you still have over 2500 user writable locations for your other programs. As far as I understand you, if you were to send a song (with sounds) to someone, you would overwrite his "mix voices" when he loads the song.

I don't think there is a real difference except in perceived limitations. If Korg would cut off two banks and reserve them for song/combi sounds, wouldn't you end up with the same thing?

Sounds indeed like a good idea (I mean to look at it in this view).
Maybe an idea to add in PCG Tools (to move a program to another location, or move all programs from a selected combi, or set list (slot) or set list), and only change references from those combis and not others.

JohnDonovan wrote:

michelkeijzers wrote:

danatkorg wrote:No change re Program storage; if you edit the Program, you need to store it. (Storing Programs in Combis would require a lot more memory.)

Please consider the next ideas:
- Make the number of programs per bank variable (e.g. bank U-A000 contains 50 programs, bank U-B 350 etc). Programs can be deleted/inserted making the bank size bigger/lower.

Surely that would cause all kinds of nightmares with MIDI program change numbers etc?

Good point indeed ... maybe max. 256 banks with max 256 programs. Or 127 banks ... than everybody should be happy

SanderXpander wrote:It seems really simple to me to keep a set bank or two for song programs. You could save them with the song if you like. There are also issues with setting a 16 programs per song limit. What if you use program changes to select different sounds during the song? Even many downloadable midi files do this. Also, what happens if you like an edited sound in a song so much you want to use it as a program? I'm assuming you can save it to a program bank but at this point the difference between the Korg and Yamaha point becomes pretty trivial.

I do agree is that it would be nice to save a song with its used programs a little more elegantly. Like, Kronos would figure out which programs are used in a given set of songs and it would save those to a bank of your choice. And load a song with just those programs, similar to the new selective sample loading. Of course, for this purpose, it would first need to be made possible to save EXi and HD1 sounds to a single bank. With the coming of the new OS that seems one of the few old idiosyncrasies left.

I just don't like the approach of a rather limited set that is hidden from normal use.
Meh, in the end, unless you have a lot of combining and sorting to do it's just way quicker to load an entire PCG anyway.

That is exactly what I mean:

- Select one or more combi (bank)s or set list (slot)s
- Move all programs used by those to some (free) program banks (divided by EXi/HD1)
- From those selected combi/set lists, move all references to the just copied patches
- Leave all other references intact.

Maybe an idea for PCG Tools ...
.

Great to see the constructive collective brainstorming between different experts and their practical viewpoints and experiences! This is how products are improved for the greater good.

Looking forward to OS3 for the Kronos' open architecture, and to future upgrades as well...

SanderXpander wrote:The Kronos doesn't have presets the way Yamaha does. There are factory presets but since every location is user modifiable you can't count on factory presets being there, so what Dan says is correct with regards to the numbers required.

Not true. Again, most combis would have 0 program edits. To postulate that any user is going to edit every single combi and place 16 edited programs within each one is frankly ridiculous.

Anyway, taking that idea, there aren't near enough empty program banks in the Kronos to accomplish that and keep the original factory voicing, so you'd be screwed either way.

It's true that in Kronos you can modify any program location, but should you? If you do, any third party set of combis that uses that program may operate incorrectly. So, most people probably don't edit the Factory Programs unless they feel they can ignore the Factory and third party combis.

StephenKay wrote:

danatkorg wrote: What happens when you try to load a song that requires a 257th "Mix Voice?" My guess is that you'd need to think about it then.

I never said 256 was enough. In fact, I said it wasn't.

And, I never said that you said...well, at any rate, here's what I was responding to:

StephenKay wrote:No. The Yamaha Mix Voices are a "hidden global pool" that is dynamically managed by the system. You don't have to think about it. If you just load a single song with edited voices, for example, they go "somewhere" and it all just works."

It all just works - except when it doesn't.

The answer to my question ("What happens when you try to load a song that requires a 257th 'Mix Voice?'") is that you get the "Mixing Voice full" error message:

"Mixing Voice full.
The Mixing Voice cannot be stored because the number of Voices already stored has exceeded the maximum capacity."

And at that point, you're back to managing data usage, except that as far as I can tell by looking at the manuals there's no easy way to figure out what's using the Mixing Voices. I guess you just start to delete Songs until you can load the one you want without the error message popping up.

There's also some manual management of what Yamaha calls the "Mixing Voice Bank," such as described in this excerpt from the Motif XF manual:

"2 Press [F6] VceConv to convert a Sample Voice of the selected Part to a Mixing Voice.
Completion of conversion calls up the Mixing Voice Store window.
3 Use the data dial or [INC/YES]/[DEC/NO] to select a Store destination number in the Mixing Voice Store window.
NOTE Only the MIXV (Mixing Voice Bank) is available."

StephenKay wrote:Oftentimes, you only need one or two edited programs in a song. That's why the global pool makes sense, since you aren't storing empty space for 16 edited programs with each combi/song.

For me, sounds are generally at least tweaked a bit if not fully original, unless it's an emulative sound. We designed the expanded OASYS/KRONOS Tone Adjust to help with this, of course, and it's used by many of the factory Combis; if edits within the Program could be stored within the Combi, this feature would certainly be used by factory sounds as well.

(Again, I think that would be cool; it's just not practical currently.)

StephenKay wrote:

danatkorg wrote:The limited number also wouldn't be much of a solution for the Kronos, with 1,792 Combis and over 28,000 Timbres in those Combis (each of which could, theoretically, use a different Program).

This ignores the fact that most of those combis wouldn't have any edited Programs, since they would be factory voicing and could refer to Factory Programs.

Not ignoring anything; see above.

In general, it does seem like these extra 256 programs ("Voices" in yamaha-speak) are really helpful on the Motif, since it only has 512 re-writable slots to begin with. The KRONOS's 2,560 re-writable Program slots provide a little more elbow room.

StephenKay wrote:It's true that in Kronos you can modify any program location, but should you? If you do, any third party set of combis that uses that program may operate incorrectly.

Actually, I'd strongly encourage users to feel free to modify any and all Program locations. This is another case in which the built-in SSD is really useful: it's trivial to save snapshots of the entire system, and swap between them for different projects. I never worry about editing; it's easy to pull up the factory sounds again if necessary. I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however.

Stephen, my point isn't that you "should" or even would modify ALL factory presets (although personally I edit practically every sound I use at least a little) but that you can't count on them being available as a resource.

I'm with Dan though, I think I've used maybe two preset combis ever (orchestral ones) and even those I edited heavily to suit my needs. So probably our perspectives are different.