The Kronos Inner Workings - For the brave ones ;-)

mathieumaes · Post by **mathieumaes** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:55 am

I don't see how Heider's posts are violating any software licence. All I see here is updates on "I did this" and "I'm going to do that". But I don't see any kind of download that breaks the software encryption, or even an explanation on how to do it.

His posts might as well been BS as there isn't any kind of proof that he actually did what he says he did. No offense here Heider, I hope you understand the point that I'm trying to make...

The only thing he could've done, is break the warranty on his own hardware...

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:23 am

I don't see how Heider's posts are violating any software licence. All I see here is updates on "I did this" and "I'm going to do that". But I don't see any kind of download that breaks the software encryption, or even an explanation on how to do it.

Your not taking into consideration the act taking place.

According to him, he is reverse-engineering the OS which is illegal because it's encrypted and copyrighted to KORG. Communicating with others for idea's, support, and posting his intentions on a forum is just something else that adds to the problem.

The only thing he could've done, is break the warranty on his own hardware...

Incorrect, breaking the encryption on the copyrighted software is illegal.

Regards
Sharp

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:06 pm

mathieumaes wrote:I don't see how Heider's posts are violating any software licence. All I see here is updates on "I did this" and "I'm going to do that". But I don't see any kind of download that breaks the software encryption, or even an explanation on how to do it.

His posts might as well been BS as there isn't any kind of proof that he actually did what he says he did. No offense here Heider, I hope you understand the point that I'm trying to make...

The only thing he could've done, is break the warranty on his own hardware...

I can only compare this to the german law - as an example. Here, EULAs in the kind provided as with the Kronos have absolutely no consequences. You could even "accept" them here, they are void anyway - unless you knew them literally and accepted them explicitly before buying the item.

However, there are laws prohibiting that you reveal business secrets to anyone or the public. This applies not only to people who legally know some business secrets, but also people who try to reveal those secrets by "technical measures" (which is more or less the juristical term for reverse engineering in this context).

On the other hand, in germany it would be legal to do what ever you want in private. IANAL, by the way - so this is just a reproduction of "common knowledge". But to conclude: In germany it would be legal to reverse engineer your device for private purposes - it's illegal to reveal your discoveries to the public, any other people or to commercially exploit the gained knowledge. But this is regardless of what the (usual shrink-wrap) EULA contains...

bronswerk · Post by **bronswerk** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:08 pm

Make me wonder Sharp, did Korg contacted you? The first 12 pages of this thread long you say nothing and now Korg made a statement we here from you.

cello · Post by **cello** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:58 pm

I think sharp is acting in the best interests of the forum; which is to clearly explain why, given the statement from Korg, the earlier posts must be clarified so that the forum itself is distanced from any illegal activity. Doesn't matter whether anyone agrees with Korg on this one or not.

Korg has the right to protect its intellectual property and doesn't matter whether Korg has contacted sharp or not; he must protect (T)HIS forum.

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:26 pm

bronswerk wrote:Make me wonder Sharp, did Korg contacted you? The first 12 pages of this thread long you say nothing and now Korg made a statement we here from you.

No and I have also not in anyway pull rank on anyone in this thread.

I simply had nothing to say until I read back today through what Heider had posted, his views and interpretations of what KORG actually said which he also posted copies of.

Quite simply, there are large inaccuracies and he is confused and misleading people unintentionally. This is totally not fair to KORG in the process or YOU the forum members.

See my post here for example....
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 800#485800

Regards
Sharp.

bronswerk · Post by **bronswerk** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:37 pm

The big picture of this thread was to make a better Kronos, nothing more. Korg instead chooses only to see a small portion of it. While they maybe right on the legal site of it, morally it feels wrong. All Kronos users would benefit of it if Korg decided to at least consider the improvements that were in hands reach.

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:17 pm

bronswerk wrote:The big picture of this thread was to make a better Kronos, nothing more. Korg instead chooses only to see a small portion of it. While they maybe right on the legal site of it, morally it feels wrong. All Kronos users would benefit of it if Korg decided to at least consider the improvements that were in hands reach.

Just food for thought, nothing more.

It's also easily to have such a simplistic view of this since it's not our software being hacked and modified which cost god only knows how many thousands of dollars and years to develop.

You can be sure KORG's programmers don't lack in ability or imagination either to do their own work. The KRONOS is after all the most advanced workstation on the market right now. Yamaha and Roland don't have anything even remotely close.

I'm just saying....

Regards
Sharp.

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:19 pm

Sharp wrote:
Incorrect, breaking the encryption on the copyrighted software is illegal.

Regards
Sharp

Are you sure?

As far as I can find out (not saying I'm right) searching various legal sites etc, reverse engineering, breaking an EULA etc is not illegal in the UK, it's a civil matter if a company could be bothered with the cost of pursuing someone.

A discussion on one solicitors site, about reverse engineering (talking about a home user not a business) finished by saying

So legally, yes you can do it - as it is a civil contractual matter.

A civil matter is not illegal and you cannot get a criminal record from it.

Bit like the UK squatting laws, in England and Wales it's a civil matter, in Scotland it's illegal, completely different things.

Also from what I can see, as long as Heider doesn't explain exactly how he's reversed engineered the Korg, it is allowable under under Article 6 of the European Software Directive

In the European Union, reverse engineering is allowed under Article 6 of the European Software Directive, for interoperability purposes only, not for creating a competing program .........

There is no provision for decompilation (white-box reverse engineering) in UK copyright law, and no fair use defense if the reverse engineering is for commercial research or study. And, there is no right to breach confidentiality agreements. In Stac Electronics v. Microsoft Corp., Stac was found to have committed a trade secret violation by reverse engineering a beta version of MS DOS that they had gotten in confidence and then using the information they gained in making their own product. However, in the UK, the EU copyright directive trumps any contractual agreement that it contradicts, so decompilation carried out for the purpose of interoperability is allowed, under that umbrella, as long as you don't reveal any confidential data.

There is also a provision (50BA) made for "observing, studying and testing of computer programs":

(1) It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program to observe, study or test the functioning of the program in order to determine the ideas and principles which underlie any element of the program if he does so while performing any of the acts of loading, displaying, running, transmitting or storing the program which he is entitled to do.

(2) Where an act is permitted under this section, it is irrelevant whether or not there exists any term or condition in an agreement which purports to prohibit or restrict the act (such terms being, by virtue of section 296A, void).

So, there is no fair use (or fair dealing, UK's much stricter escape hatch) for decompliation or copying during decompilation. However, sniffing (black-box reverse engineering) for interoperability purposes is allowed.

I could of course be reading it wrong.

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:23 pm

Just thinking....
I”m sitting here in the Studio and I'm following this thread on my Lionstracs X-R rack unit screen.

Heider would be like a kid in a candy story playing around with one of these as the vast majority of the system is wide open.

Regards
Sharp

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:50 pm

To be honest, I'm surprised it took this long for Korg to respond. (Or am I?) Once you saw pictures of the Kronos apart with external ports added to the chassis it was obvious this guy knew what he was doing and was serious!

Because of the underlying open source used, I'm sure there are some points where the "legality" is sticky. Machine code is NOT source code, so it's not really a modified or derivative work at that point IMO. Anyone with this knowledge could do it. The fact that Korg did very little to harden some parts of the system is on them IMO. What I find HILARIOUS is "Tell us what you did" to break the "encryption"! I mean really? It makes you wonder about the level of tech in Korg's Full Time Dev dept or if there even IS one!

This guy was on his way to making functional changes in about two months! And THAT is in a reverse engineering sense doing it the HARDEST way possible. One could only imagine what he could have done from the top level using the actual source. As a computer professional (programmer) myself that leaves me unimpressed with Korg and leaves them no excuse, ZERO for not being able to make these changes in a timely manner.

Speaking practically as an end user ONLY with computer skills, I was looking forward to the ability to "hack" my Kronos for when the day comes it is unloved and forgotten by Korg with features still missing and underutilized to its full potential. The Oasys was an "Open" system too and we all saw how THAT turned out! With an $8000 price tag to boot!

Korg if you think some of our requests are "Impossible", PLEASE hire Heider as a contractor with an NDA and let him work with you. We would be a GRATEFUL userbase being able to get the most from this wonderful machine you've given us. PLEASE don't call it "Done"!

bronswerk · Post by **bronswerk** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:00 pm

Come on Sharp, nothing more then food for thought? Here was a chance for Korg to make the Kronos right were it should be in the first place, but now they have cold feet for inviting an outsider who did an outstanding job imho.

Respect for Heider, he deserved better then this.

Yuma · Post by **Yuma** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:09 pm

I personally think it is unlikely that you will be able to compile your own version of the KRONOS operating system but we wish you all the best of luck with it.

I've read this sentence many times now and I can only read it as an encouragement from Korg to Heider to proceed with his work.
If it would have been a no-no to reverse engineer the KRONOS OS, then they should have responded the following in stead:

I personally think it is unlikely that you will be able to compile your own version of the KRONOS operating system and you're not allowed to do so anyway according to our EULA.

If Korg were a smart company they would have contacted Heider to ask for collaboration in making the KRONOS an even better product, instead of criminalising Heider.
Now they only point towards their EULA in their response and don't comment on the content of this thread at all.
They are missing the big opportunity that was brought forth from this thread, which is a real shame from a business point of view.

mathieumaes · Post by **mathieumaes** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:09 pm

Incorrect, breaking the encryption on the copyrighted software is illegal.

If that were true, any hacker that exposes a security issue in some system or website would end up in jail. Which - luckily - isn't the case.

I can't see how there can be a law against breaking encryption. It's the act of abusing it or damaging others that would be subject to lawsuits...

I follow the news regularly on many kinds of technical subjects. Custom/Homebrew firmware is something that's around for a long time:
- Custom Android roms for mobile phones. There are a few universal Android roms out there (CyanogenMod, MIUI). If there was a legal issue, I bet that Samsung, HTC or other companies would've tried to shut it down. Before you can install a ROM, you need to "root" your phone which involves a bit of hacking. Many tools are in the field. Those tools are probably illegal, but they can't suit someone for rooting his phone.
- Custom firmware that adds functionalities on certain models of routers. In this field there are many "big" open source alternatives, such as openWRT, Tomato, ...
- The custom rom for the Behringer FCB1010 foot controller. Some belgian guy sells eprom chips with an enhanced rom.

Bottom line is, I doubt Korg can stop anyone from fiddling on the engine of his own hardware. Worst case scenario is that you "brick" your device and warranty is void.

If Heider would publish a keygen for installing the sound libraries, that would be a whole different story.

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:22 pm

bronswerk wrote:Come on Sharp, nothing more then food for thought? Here was a chance for Korg to make the Kronos right were it should be in the first place, but now they have cold feet for inviting an outsider who did an outstanding job imho.

Respect for Heider, he deserved better then this.

Forget that Heider even exists for a moment.
If you think KORG needs external help writing code, your only kidding yourself and insulting the very people who wrote the OS to the most advanced workstation in the world... KRONOS.

Respect for Heider, he deserved better then this.

Nobody has disrespected Heider. Not one person, not even KORG.

Heider also has an invitation to talk to KORG about what he's being doing. Who knows what the future holds ?

Regards
Sharp