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Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:54 pm
by Bertotti
I have been looking at something like this for added tweak ability but am still undecided.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/BCR2000.aspx
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:00 pm
by jimknopf
Code from different projects obviously doesn't always travel like we wished:
- up to now, the Kronos sequencer from the Oasys project has not been updated with developments from the M3
- no PA3 acoustic instrument articulations have reached the Kronos so far
- probably the same for the KK filters: they are part of a complete concept and not just some code easily useable in any other concept without considerable work.
It's all a matter of time and money to invest: if it doesn't pay for Korg, it is unlikely to happen.
External controllers have one big disadvantage: they do not fit a certain synth like a glove, and you never get a comparable routine using them with their variable controller settings for different gear, as you get it from the integration of synth and controller interface. That's while I always prefer a synth as a whole, however useful master keyboards and controllers may be: it is just MUCH more intuitive to use an integrated synth after getting used to it.
Re: AL-1 vs King Korg
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:05 pm
by CfNorENa
jeremykeys wrote:I've been looking at the King korg but I have to wonder, can it do anything that I can't do on my Kronos with my Al-1 engine? Sure, it has a tube but I can figure a way to emulate that with my IFX and an amp. I do like the fact that it has a lot of knobs but the Kronos has a bunch and I can assign them plus I can change them too. Just wondering.
I agree with the others that AL-1 is not really well suited to emulate vintage analog. It is a BEAST, though, and was a big surprise to me (with plenty of real analog in my studio, I didn't think I'd spend much time with AL-1, but I think it's my favorite engine in the Kronos).
But I don't think the KK is the answer, either. I haven't played it myself, so obviously can't speak authoritatively on this topic, but to me there is a simple principle here: if you want analog sound, buy real analog. There is so much to choose from these days, at so many different price points. I mean, for the price of a KK, you could probably find (for example) a used Prophet '08 rack. Plenty of knobs, real analog. Would surely complement the Kronos better than would a KK, right?
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:12 pm
by jimknopf
You will be surprised, but I prefer the VA sound of the KK a lot over the analog Prophet 08 sound (which doesn't sound anywhere near to the Prophet 5 or other classical analog gear I like to my ears).
If I could have a polyphonic 8 voice Moog Voyager at a payable price up to 3000€, I would probably be happy, but that won't happen anytime soon. Same for buying several new Oberheim SEMs: an expensive joy and still not quite the sound of the old SEMs (though much closer than the Prophet 08 to the Prophet 5).
So I really don't see any real alternative to the KK at the moment, and certainly not at that price. But the original question was if a Kronos owner would have what a KK owner has anyway, just by using the Kronos VAs. My answer to that, using both side by side, is a definitive no, not even speaking of the daily KK fun factor.
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:17 pm
by Bald Eagle
That looks interesting. They also have one with faders and I think you can chain them together.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/BCF2000.aspx
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:20 pm
by CfNorENa
jimknopf wrote:You will be surprised, but I prefer the VA sound of the KK a lot over the analog Prophet 08 sound
Not very surprised, actually!
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:40 pm
by QuiRobinez
every VA synth has it's own strengths, but I could get great analog sounding leads from the kronos when I used the Multi Filter in the AL-1 combined with a low pass filter for filter B to cut the high end. It doesn't sound like a moog, but when you use the multi filter in manual 1 mode (where you set the behavior of the filter yourself) you can create a smooth sound' if you also apply an ams mixer to that filter. I did use this technique for some of the smooth dance leads I programmed in the AL-1.
I have a lot of different VA's including the virus ti and roland jp8080, but I prefer the al-1 at this point, it sounds so much stronger and brighter, the sounds really have their own place in the song mix.
Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:38 pm
by jeremykeys
Well, I think my question has been answered. If I want true analogue sounds, I'm going to need an analogue synth.
As far as the tube goes, I think that's a brilliant idea.
As far as having to program the AL-1 and it's GUI, I personally am NOT a fan. I just find it counter-intuitive. jimknopf is absolutely right when he says he finds it much easier to program the Ploysix or MS-20. It's all because of the knobs. Graphs and input numbers are just far too time consuming for me to do any proper programming. Now I don realize that some of you out there are doing great things with the AL-1. I wish I could but I'd say that when starting from scratch, I find it just takes far too long to get to where I want to be. I can however see the serious power in it. I usually end up runnig back to my P6 or MS-20.
It really does look like I'm going to have to find a way to get a KK. My wife did say it would be alright but she can change her mind. Hmmm/
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:33 am
by QuiRobinez
i have them both lying around somewhere in the studio, i never thought of this, but i think in theory it should be possible to create an editor for each synth since the BC series supports learning of Sysex codes.
Now since the kronos editor on the computer can program each synth parameters through sysex, probably the BC series can do the same for the parameters you assign to them.
I have no idea if it actually works with a kronos, but i will try tonight if it works as a hardware editor for the kronos, in theory it should work
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:53 am
by Bertotti
Well you are certainly the man that can figure it out if it is possible! Please let us know! I think it would be nice to have the extra controls. I thinkn it is exciting to have a second set of faders for cx3 also!
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:59 am
by Broadwave
QuiRobinez wrote:
i have them both lying around somewhere in the studio, i never thought of this, but i think in theory it should be possible to create an editor for each synth since the BC series supports learning of Sysex codes.
Now since the kronos editor on the computer can program each synth parameters through sysex, probably the BC series can do the same for the parameters you assign to them.
I have no idea if it actually works with a kronos, but i will try tonight if it works as a hardware editor for the kronos, in theory it should work
Unfortunately(?), I also have a BCR2000, and I've had no luck at all with it... I think it's down to Korg's implementation of sysex data - certain parameters seem to require two variables (particularly for parameters that have negative values), and the BCR seems only to be able to handle ONE variable - some parameters work, some don't
@QuiRobinez - It would be great if you can confirm this one way or the other.
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:22 am
by QuiRobinez
Kronik wrote:Unfortunately(?), I also have a BCR2000, and I've had no luck at all with it... I think it's down to Korg's implementation of sysex data - certain parameters seem to require two variables (particularly for parameters that have negative values), and the BCR seems only to be able to handle ONE variable - some parameters work, some don't
@QuiRobinez - It would be great if you can confirm this one way or the other.
ah double byte values, that would be a problem for the BCR2000, i programmed an editor once for the V-synth, that one also worked with double byte values.
you could solve this in cubase, in that case you could create a midi device map for each engine which controls the double byte sysex values and map those to the BCR2000. Then it would work.
Although this is off topic, here's how i did this for the vsynth in the cubase editor:
to create a single byte value sysex code:
- create a 13 byte length sysex message
- select the c5 roland checksum (this checksum should probably a different one for the Kronos)
- remove all parameter values except value 10.
- fill out value 0 - 9 with the hardcoded sysex values.
an easy way to create double byte sysex codes in the cubase midi editor is:
- create a 14 byte length sysex message
- select the c5 roland checksum (this checksum should probably a different one for the Kronos)
- remove all parameter values except value 12.
- select value 12 and fill in: number of bits: 8, bits per byte: 4
- fill out value 0 - 10 with the hardcoded sysex values.
Now you need to do this for every parameter in a kronos engine that you want to connect to a bcr2000. So obviously a lot of work which i don't need for myself so i doubt that i will spent time on that.
so i will check what i can achieve with just the bcr without to much work and will get back on that.
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:35 pm
by MortenJ
jimknopf wrote:You will be surprised, but I prefer the VA sound of the KK a lot over the analog Prophet 08 sound (which doesn't sound anywhere near to the Prophet 5 or other classical analog gear I like to my ears).
If I could have a polyphonic 8 voice Moog Voyager at a payable price up to 3000€, I would probably be happy, but that won't happen anytime soon. Same for buying several new Oberheim SEMs: an expensive joy and still not quite the sound of the old SEMs (though much closer than the Prophet 08 to the Prophet 5).
So I really don't see any real alternative to the KK at the moment, and certainly not at that price. But the original question was if a Kronos owner would have what a KK owner has anyway, just by using the Kronos VAs. My answer to that, using both side by side, is a definitive no, not even speaking of the daily KK fun factor.
Me too love Kingkorg ,have owned Alesis Andromeda and prophet 08 and sold both for a Virus TI.
Kingkorg is not only 80's-like sounds but also Dance-sounds
at the moment I do not spend 7000-10000 euro on a Elka Synthex that is the only analog synth I like to own.
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:41 am
by jeremykeys
MortenJ. I am surprised that you sold your Andromeda.I am under the impression that they are a very much wanted, rare keyboard.
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:52 am
by NuSkoolTone
jimknopf wrote:I use both and see a HUGE difference.
a) Sound:
- AL1 delivers a very neutral sound. not reminiscent of any of the classical synths. I neither get anything Moog-like from it nor anything really reminding me of a Prophet 5, Oberheims etc. Looking at classical analog synths, at most I get some ARP-like sounds from it.
All in all, AL1 is rather a powerful modern synth of it's own character, than something suited to deliver classical analog sounds. If you take it as that, it is great - if you try to get classical synth sounds from it, you can forget most of that goal from my view.
- the KK (Kingkorg) offers a MUCH broader sonic palette. In my ears it's basic sound with the Korg filters is already significantly more smooth and analog-like than that of AL1, and the various other filter models are really well done and useable, and add a lot of easy access to classical analog sounds! For example I had no problem at all getting some Jan Hammer or George Duke lead sounds from the KK. And I have not been able to get close to these from any other hardware VA so far, including Access Virus(es), Nord Leads, Alesis, Novation etc., and all Kronos VAs.
Same for the tube: Tube overdrive belongs to the really VERY weak effects in a Kronos (while it has overwhelming good reverbs, delays and modulation effects). On a Kronos, with the present effects it is simply not possible to get any decent overdriven B3, EP, or synth sound in good quality. Overdrive sounds dreadful harsh and digital on the Kronos: something which should be on top of a list of possible future changes in the effects section IMHO. On the KK, in sharp contrast, the tube overdrive belongs to the best I ever met on any keyboard. It delivers anything from warm saturation over creamy overdrive up to slight tube screaming. KK and Kronos worlds apart!
b) Sound shaping
While I have a lot of fun with the Kronos Polysix and MS-20, I simply get no intuitve connection to AL-1. Whenever I try to program something on it, the jumping between subpages/menus gives me much too little real overview. I get tired from jumping after a short while, constantly losing overview over the basic sound structure and the powerful, but often complicated modulation matrix (AMS).
Again it's just the opposite with the KK: this thing is one big invitation to use the big knobs and do your own sounds, or tweak the presets. It is as intuitive and direct as a Moog Model D, just polyphonic and with more sound shaping options, including very simple and direct effect shaping and use. You always have the feeling to have full control over every aspect of the sound. You can really 'play synth' live with it and not just 'use synth sounds'. I am really glad since I have the KK on top of the Kronos.
So if the main point of this thread is that a Kronos is already delivering what a KK offers I can only laugh and say:
Are you kidding???
Every point is RIGHT ON IMO. It drives me crazy that I have 3 analog synth engines and some classic sounds are just easier to get with samples because those sounds aren't really in there. The overdrives (Though I feel the suitcase model is quite good) and the sequencer are both in desperate need of an update in addition to an editor that's actually USABLE. What a CRAZY idea to hook a large monitor to a Kronos to dig deep and PROGRAM so you don't have to hunch over and squint!