Mimicking a Hammond B3 type organ

jeebustrain · Post by **jeebustrain** » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:53 pm

Bitflipper wrote: BTW, thanks jeebustrain for that Organimation tip. That may be just the ticket! I've spent a lot of time tweaking the CX3 but have never duplicated the tone I'd been getting from the Hammond. I've been hovering over the Buy button for a new Hammond or Crumar Mojo, but money's tight and I like hauling one instrument to gigs.

Oh yea - I was totally blown away when I actually tried it out. I gave up on a decent organ sound from the Kronos 2 years ago when I started carrying around my Burn pedal - I redid all my organ programs to send out of Output 3 into it. At this point, the only thing that stops me from dropping it is the fact that most of those programs use so many IFX, that I wouldn't be able to insert it into a lot of my splits and layers for the band.

timbukktwo · Post by **timbukktwo** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:57 am

Is Organimation merely a highly tweaked set of programs ONLY utilizing Kronos CX-3 EXi and effects?

Perilous · Post by **Perilous** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:09 am

I bought a Neo Vent 2 on Reverb used. Got a pretty good deal. There were quite a number of them for sale last time I checked.

benny ray · Post by **benny ray** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:40 pm

njkronos wrote:FYI: Here's a small cut of a real Leslie hooked up to a Kronos at 3:13 of the following video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbktRBA6EVE

I was really suprised that the Kronos organ sounded so good run thru a Leslie 145. I had one of these back in the day. The real leslie really makes a huge difference.

Bitflipper · Post by **Bitflipper** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:10 pm

timbukktwo wrote:Is Organimation merely a highly tweaked set of programs ONLY utilizing Kronos CX-3 EXi and effects?

Yes. It's a set of 128 presets using native CX-3 features. I bought it last night, and I gotta say it's an improvement over the best I've been able to come up with on my own.

Today I intend to see what it'll take to run those patches through the Ventilator.

On stage, I've been using one generic organ patch that I'd created, routing it to Output 3. I get the best results from the Vent when I run mono into it, and let it take care of the stereo spread. Organimation conveniently provides mono versions of most patches, so I will probably re-route those to Output 3 as well.

It's a bit of a PIA, though, the way the Kronos' master volume control only affects Outputs 1 and 2. I have to rely entirely on the swell pedal to control the organ volume, and frequently have to interrupt my performance and walk over to my amplifier to adjust the volume.

Anybody have a suggestion as to how to deal with this annoyance? Maybe program another control as a master volume?

timbukktwo · Post by **timbukktwo** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:25 pm

Hey Bitflipper- Wow! This is a good testimony to the CX-3 EXi. I've got the Vent II and Mini Vent (for organ), but haven't had the time to test them with the Kronos, yet. Please let me know your impressions with the Vent! There's a few videos on YouTube that compare Kronos with the internal sim, the Vent, and a real leslie. Of course- leslie>Vent>internal sim. Even though the internal sim has been quite improved (a few tweaks mentioned per members of this forum make it even better), nothing beats a real leslie. The Vent sounds, of course, REALLY good, though! One of the best sims! I wonder how K-sounds got Organimation so warm and authentic? I think the basic sound of the organ is (dare I say, rather simple to produce), but the leslie is as much a part of the sound. The CX-3 EXi has the basic goods to deliver (mostly), but the internal leslie sim in the past needed improvement, in which Korg did with the CX-3 EXi overhaul (still not quite there, but almost). I think K-sounds just tweaked the " " out of it to make it better!

malupi75 · Post by **malupi75** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:18 pm

You have to look for GSI Burn, in my opinion (at this moment) is the best rotary speaker simulation; plus it is fully programmable (also the time to reach the velocity you want on slow, fast and stop and vice versa) and has a lot of other features:
distortion effect, is obtained by a true vacuum tube and a special circuitry that recreates all the sonic character of both the preamplifier and the final amplifier of a rotary speaker like Leslie 122 and Leslie 147.
phaser, chorus, delay, echo, wah wah (may be controlled by optional external pedal).

You can find demos on Youtube or on producer site:

http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=41

Bitflipper · Post by **Bitflipper** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:23 pm

IMO, the only organ instrument whose built-in Leslie sim comes close to the Ventilator is the one in the Crumar Mojo.

TBH, I've not actually played that instrument. I'm basing my opinion on the Leslie sim built into the VB3 VST instrument, which is the engine under the hood for the Mojo. VB3 has been my go-to virtual organ for years, even though I had a Hammond right there next to the computer. It's a helluva bargain at a mere fifty bucks! You can use its distortion and Leslie effects on non-organ tracks, too.

Sadly, my Hammond was stolen. The Kronos is its replacement. With the Vent, its organ sounds are entirely acceptable. What I miss the most is the light action of the Hammond. Eventually, I probably will buy another one, either the Mojo or an SK-2, but my finances don't allow that yet.

So my current rig consists of the Kronos, with the Ventilator for CX-3 patches (and debuting Organimator this weekend!), running into a pair of stereo-linked Roland KC-350 amplifiers.

I set the amps on either side of the drummer, trying for 6-8 feet of separation when stage size allows it. That yields a nice spread for the first 20' in front of the stage, beyond which it melds into mono. The dancers, at least, get a nice stereophonic effect even if the drunks in the back don't.

The bass player uses two cabinets, so when space is tight I set the Rolands atop the bass cabinets, which seems to improve their sound by decoupling them from the stage floor. Excessive bass is a problem with the KC-350s, which I mitigate with the Kronos' global graphic equalizer.

Because the Kronos keyboard isn't very organ-like, I use an unweighted MIDI controller for playing organ. It's not a Hammond-style waterfall keyboard, but the light action is better for organ than the Kronos' piano-ish keybed.

Not yet ideal perhaps, but all in all a workable setup for my classic rock bar band. Next challenge: a believable Vox Continental patch for those Doors tunes.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:58 pm

Very good sounds! I looked at their PDF. I'm just wondering what "thickening" effect is used in MFX 1. I also noticed that form what I've seen on the Youtube video, they use the Custom Rotary speaker.

Bitflipper · Post by **Bitflipper** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:21 pm

I agree, those GSI Burn demos sound quite good. I could not find a U.S. distributor, though, to compare its price with the Ventilator. If it's less-expensive than the Vent's $500 price tag, it'd definitely be an alternative.

As for what magic those K-Sounds presets employ, they're a lot of insert fx, including multiple EQs, multiple distortions and even multiple instances of the Rotary effect.

You'd think that stacking rotary sims might result in some awful mush, but that's not the case. They use different acceleration and deceleration times for each of them, as well as different horn balance, mic and amp settings. That, I think, is where the "thickening" effect comes from. They aren't necessarily both engaged at the same time - SW2 is used to turn on the second rotary insert.

Kudos to the developers, who obviously spent a lot of time figuring out these tweaks. IMO they earned their forty bucks.

timbukktwo · Post by **timbukktwo** » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:57 pm

I whole-heartedly agree! I really do believe that there's many, many more seriously good things about the Kronos that have yet to be discovered with its true potential!

benny ray · Post by **benny ray** » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:18 am

Bitflipper wrote:I agree, those GSI Burn demos sound quite good. I could not find a U.S. distributor, though, to compare its price with the Ventilator. If it's less-expensive than the Vent's $500 price tag, it'd definitely be an alternative.

As for what magic those K-Sounds presets employ, they're a lot of insert fx, including multiple EQs, multiple distortions and even multiple instances of the Rotary effect.

You'd think that stacking rotary sims might result in some awful mush, but that's not the case. They use different acceleration and deceleration times for each of them, as well as different horn balance, mic and amp settings. That, I think, is where the "thickening" effect comes from. They aren't necessarily both engaged at the same time - SW2 is used to turn on the second rotary insert.

Kudos to the developers, who obviously spent a lot of time figuring out these tweaks. IMO they earned their forty bucks.

There is a rotary pedal that is called Lester K that is very good and much cheaper than the Vent or Burn. I have friends that love the Lester K. I personally have done no comparisons. These people i am referring to are excellent players and the like the Lester K rotary .

Bitflipper · Post by **Bitflipper** » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:32 am

You're right: Lester K is a LOT cheaper: $178 at Sweetwater.

To my ear, however, it's not in the same league with the Ventilator, sounding a lot like Kronos' own built-in emulation. Which is not to trash the Kronos effect, it's really not that bad. But if you're accustomed to, and lust after, the sound of a real Leslie then the vast majority of electronic emulations just don't satisfy.

Bitflipper · Post by **Bitflipper** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:34 pm

I've been talking up the Ventilator for years, but after watching this video by master organist (and master salesman) Tony Monaco, I'm now convinced that the GSI Burn is the best Leslie sim out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBemrRnKADs

It sounds as good as the Vent, IMO, plus it adds a whole lot of other features such as reverb, chorus, phaser, MIDI control, headphone out and presets.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:30 pm

I tried them side by side once and have to say I really prefer the sound of the Vent. I wish it had midi control like the Burn though.