Montage by Yamaha

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aron
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Post by aron »

So I am incorrect about each knob. Apparently, knobs 1-8 CAN control multiple destinations. Which means, each knob 1-8 IS a super knob onto itself. I will need to check this out as the manual shows nothing like this.

> Each of these assignments can control multiple destinations, which can be effects parameters, envelope controls, motion sequence control, etc...almost everything can be a destination.

In any case, this synth is super close to the "recording/playback" synthesizer that I wanted for a while. Basically to be able to record movements - ANY movements and have them play back when a key is pressed.

In my ideal world, each note would trigger a complete sequence with sound. I know the Montage cannot do this, but it's getting there.

Time to put one on the rider :-)

uh oh.... now I found out it has 128 voices polyphony period. Doesn't matter if it's a mix of FM or AWM2 or mono vs. stereo - 128 notes total.
"It’s 128 voices, either stereo or mono, period, divided amongst the parts. So if you have 8 parts in a performance, 4 of them AWM,4 FM, you still have the 128-voice poly limit. Obviousy
if you’re playing an 8-part performance and playing lots of notes and using the sustain pedal, you will run out of polyphony."

p.s. another thing I missed. I didn't realize the Motif is done. wow.... "“The Motif series is over.”" from Yamaha.
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Kevin Nolan
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

Thanks aron for the clarity on the super knob. So it's not quite the same as AN1x morphing - but, as you point out - quite powerful in its own right.

But aron - it's 128 note polyphony for each engine. In other words - there are 256 voices available - 128 AWM AND 128 FM.


@EXer, The Montage FM engine is not a subset of the FS1r. True, the FS1r has another (formant-shaping) synth engine, but Montage will provide important enhancements over the FS1r FM engine:

- 4 times the polyphony and up to 8 layers
- Superior DACs, and likely superior bit-depth and lower aliasing oscillator - important for acoustic-like programs.
- The Super-knob, and other knob and fader realtime control
- Motion Sequencing
- Excellent graphical interface for designing FM sounds
aron
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Post by aron »

> it's 128 note polyphony for each engine

Sadly it is not. That feature spec was incorrect. It's 128 notes no matter what combination. That quote I have is directly from Dave Polich the programmer.

Oh, forgot to add this part specifically for US!

Sound quality - yes this is where Montage really shines. It’s better than the XF, and also for you Korg lovers, it’s much louder than the XF.

Hey.... right under our noses.... here's why it sounds better (maybe):

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto ... 89&t=39922
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Mosquita Muerta
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Montage and the FS1R synthesis

Post by Mosquita Muerta »

There is not any direct Voice compatibility with FS1R.

The FM-X has some similarities to all Yamaha DX/TX engines, but there is no Voice compatibility with FORMANT SHAPING (FS1R) Voices.

Voices from DX7, DX7mkII, TX802, TX816 have been announced as compatible with a conversion application.

FS1R it was a 16 Operator FM rack synth running on 8 Operators (Voiced) made musical tones, plus 8 Operators (unVoiced) made articulate noises.

The FM-X engine of the Montage features Spectral Forms which are best heard to appreciate the difference.

A Sine wave is the definition of the Fundamental containing no harmonics (overtones). Harmonics are whole integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. In DX-style FM you build increasing complex wave shapes by the interaction of sine waves. When the pitch of one Operator is uses to modify another is your basic FM. When the pitch ratio of one is 1:1 (equal) to the other, you get a result that is all the harmonics. When that ratio is 2:1 Modifier to Carrier, the result is every other (only the odd numbered) harmonic.

All harmonic we identify as a Sawtooth Wave
Every other harmonic we identify as a Square Wave.

FM-X gives an option to select "All" harmonics (sawtooth like), just "Odd" harmonics (square like) and spectral shapes with a resonant peak (emphasis) ... These non-Sine wave sources can be further strengthened via a parameter called the Spectral Skirt which influences the timbre of the resulting non-Sine wave source. You are provided 6 alternate wave sources of differing harmonic content (source waves) - which allows extremely complex waves from any single Operator... And there are 8 Operators per FM-X Part

An "All" (harmonic) Spectral Form with a Spectral Skirt set to maximum (wide) will give you a Sawtooth Wave.
An "Odd" (harmonic) Spectral Form with a Spectral Skirt set to maximum (wide) will give you a Square Wave
A "Res" (resonant harmonic) Spectral Form provides increasing higher frequency emphasis and a selection of complex synth sound sources.

These Forms in conjunction with the Skirt parameter generate the same type of energy with a single operator as a Feedback loop on itself would (except with a lot more control)... The classic single Feedback Loops found in the 88 algorithms ensure compatibility with legacy DX/TX FM sounds. But building sounds from scratch with FM-X you can start with a complex wave.

Significantly the resulting array of harmonic complexity as a starting point far exceeds the selection of a handful of wave types in your traditional analog synth. And once you start interacting this singular wave source by modifying or allowing it to be modified by another Operator, you begin to see there is truly an infinite range of wave sources per FM-X Part.

In the 1980's FM was seen as difficult. Back then the DX7 introduced menu driven interface. Using a computer was still new, navigating parameters and numbers in a screen was completely New. Now with everything from games to cell phones, navigating an operating system is literally child's play. Add to this the knobs and sliders that help adjust FM levels and settings... This time around FM will be a lot easier. The reputation of being difficult or hard to use will be greatly reduced. Time is always the best teacher. Everyone is very used to navigating and accessing parameters (this was completely foreign for most in 1983).

First, there are no Voices in the Montage, what you know as a Voice is now one of eight PARTs that can simultaneously be under Keyboard Control, a PART can be AWM2 or it can be built from an 8 Operator FM-X.

Each Operator has a source wave, and an Amplitude Envelope Generator which controls its output over time, and each Operator is either a Modulator (influencer) or a Carrier (outputs sound). Once the Operators have interacted to generate a complex output (sound), that sound can run through a Montage Filter (LPF, HPF, BPF, BEF, Dual band Filters, Etc., etc., etc.) Effects can be added, controllers assigned. Filtering, Effects and Controllers are assigned on the PART COMMON level of editing.

EG Bias was how, in the original DX-FM engine, you were able to additionally control the Amplitude Envelope Generator within each Operator via the Mod Wheel, Aftertouch, Foot Control or Breath Control. Normally a Program is activated by the Note-On key velocity, that determines the amplitude, and affects the resulting envelope loudness contour. The higher the key velocity the closer the output moved toward the main channel volume setting. EG Bias is a method to add to or replace this function with a physical controller.

Since in FM, the AEG is encased within each Operator - this differs from the analog synth paradigm where all oscillators likely share a single Amplifier Envelope Generator - individual control of the response of Operators allows multi-dimensional control within a sound. For FM, this means you can change harmonic content by manipulating 'modulator' output level independent of the 'carrier' output level.

When the FM engine is encased in a host synth, that host has access to the FM engine at very critical points. The FM-X engine can be accessed with the architecture of Montage. You can 'bias' control of Operator EG on a per Operator basis, from a long list of potential control sources (40 in all), including all the usual suspects (Mod Wheel, BC, FC, AT) and new possibilities like a Motion Sequence, the Envelope of another signal, even an external signal... so an external audio signal can be used as a control source to an FM-X Operator.


:D
Bachus
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Re: Montage and the FS1R synthesis

Post by Bachus »

Mosquita Muerta wrote:There is not any direct Voice compatibility with FS1R.

The FM-X has some similarities to all Yamaha DX/TX engines, but there is no Voice compatibility with FORMANT SHAPING (FS1R) Voices.

Voices from DX7, DX7mkII, TX802, TX816 have been announced as compatible with a conversion application.

FS1R it was a 16 Operator FM rack synth running on 8 Operators (Voiced) made musical tones, plus 8 Operators (unVoiced) made articulate noises.

The FM-X engine of the Montage features Spectral Forms which are best heard to appreciate the difference.

A Sine wave is the definition of the Fundamental containing no harmonics (overtones). Harmonics are whole integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. In DX-style FM you build increasing complex wave shapes by the interaction of sine waves. When the pitch of one Operator is uses to modify another is your basic FM. When the pitch ratio of one is 1:1 (equal) to the other, you get a result that is all the harmonics. When that ratio is 2:1 Modifier to Carrier, the result is every other (only the odd numbered) harmonic.

All harmonic we identify as a Sawtooth Wave
Every other harmonic we identify as a Square Wave.

FM-X gives an option to select "All" harmonics (sawtooth like), just "Odd" harmonics (square like) and spectral shapes with a resonant peak (emphasis) ... These non-Sine wave sources can be further strengthened via a parameter called the Spectral Skirt which influences the timbre of the resulting non-Sine wave source. You are provided 6 alternate wave sources of differing harmonic content (source waves) - which allows extremely complex waves from any single Operator... And there are 8 Operators per FM-X Part

An "All" (harmonic) Spectral Form with a Spectral Skirt set to maximum (wide) will give you a Sawtooth Wave.
An "Odd" (harmonic) Spectral Form with a Spectral Skirt set to maximum (wide) will give you a Square Wave
A "Res" (resonant harmonic) Spectral Form provides increasing higher frequency emphasis and a selection of complex synth sound sources.

These Forms in conjunction with the Skirt parameter generate the same type of energy with a single operator as a Feedback loop on itself would (except with a lot more control)... The classic single Feedback Loops found in the 88 algorithms ensure compatibility with legacy DX/TX FM sounds. But building sounds from scratch with FM-X you can start with a complex wave.

Significantly the resulting array of harmonic complexity as a starting point far exceeds the selection of a handful of wave types in your traditional analog synth. And once you start interacting this singular wave source by modifying or allowing it to be modified by another Operator, you begin to see there is truly an infinite range of wave sources per FM-X Part.

In the 1980's FM was seen as difficult. Back then the DX7 introduced menu driven interface. Using a computer was still new, navigating parameters and numbers in a screen was completely New. Now with everything from games to cell phones, navigating an operating system is literally child's play. Add to this the knobs and sliders that help adjust FM levels and settings... This time around FM will be a lot easier. The reputation of being difficult or hard to use will be greatly reduced. Time is always the best teacher. Everyone is very used to navigating and accessing parameters (this was completely foreign for most in 1983).

First, there are no Voices in the Montage, what you know as a Voice is now one of eight PARTs that can simultaneously be under Keyboard Control, a PART can be AWM2 or it can be built from an 8 Operator FM-X.

Each Operator has a source wave, and an Amplitude Envelope Generator which controls its output over time, and each Operator is either a Modulator (influencer) or a Carrier (outputs sound). Once the Operators have interacted to generate a complex output (sound), that sound can run through a Montage Filter (LPF, HPF, BPF, BEF, Dual band Filters, Etc., etc., etc.) Effects can be added, controllers assigned. Filtering, Effects and Controllers are assigned on the PART COMMON level of editing.

EG Bias was how, in the original DX-FM engine, you were able to additionally control the Amplitude Envelope Generator within each Operator via the Mod Wheel, Aftertouch, Foot Control or Breath Control. Normally a Program is activated by the Note-On key velocity, that determines the amplitude, and affects the resulting envelope loudness contour. The higher the key velocity the closer the output moved toward the main channel volume setting. EG Bias is a method to add to or replace this function with a physical controller.

Since in FM, the AEG is encased within each Operator - this differs from the analog synth paradigm where all oscillators likely share a single Amplifier Envelope Generator - individual control of the response of Operators allows multi-dimensional control within a sound. For FM, this means you can change harmonic content by manipulating 'modulator' output level independent of the 'carrier' output level.

When the FM engine is encased in a host synth, that host has access to the FM engine at very critical points. The FM-X engine can be accessed with the architecture of Montage. You can 'bias' control of Operator EG on a per Operator basis, from a long list of potential control sources (40 in all), including all the usual suspects (Mod Wheel, BC, FC, AT) and new possibilities like a Motion Sequence, the Envelope of another signal, even an external signal... so an external audio signal can be used as a control source to an FM-X Operator.


:D
I dont see the revolutionary part of it ...Sure it has improvements over a 35 year old technollogy.. and the grphical interface may make programming much easier.. But essentially its still FM..

Other FM engines have more options.. or some VA synths that have andvanced FM on top of all their other engines..

Basically my go to for advanced FM synthesis is (strangely as it sounds) Reaktor from NI..
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Post by EvilDragon »

aron wrote:> it's 128 note polyphony for each engine

Sadly it is not. That feature spec was incorrect. It's 128 notes no matter what combination. That quote I have is directly from Dave Polich the programmer.
WTF? Why would they market it as 128+128 then? It's right there in the FAQ:
Maximum polyphony is 128?

AMW2: 128 and FM-X: 128, so 256 poly in max.
These polyphony don't depend on processing resorce, you can use always.
Baffling. I thought that's the reason why they have two of their processing chips inside - one for AWM, one for FM-X. Makes sense, no?


Also I wonder how mr. Polich calculated that it's 128 in any case (wouldn't that be an awful lot of noise if you tried sustaining over 128 voices, how would you notice voices dropping out then?), how come he's somehow superior to what Yamaha outlined in their spec sheet?
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Post by aron »

He's very clear. It's 128 note polyphony no matter what the combination of engines used. Mono or stereo with AWM2 as well.
They said the initial marketing was incorrect.
philmagnotta - 02 February 2016 09:33 PM
Yamaha states that it has 128 stereo voice polyphony in AWM2 engine. That’s nice but, there is some confusion or lack of clarity about polyphony across the whole montage system. Yamaha states that in the AWM2 engine, mono voices are still at 128. So 128 voice poly stereo or mono. Normally, x number of stereo voices is doubled in mono. Example, in the motif-XF you get 64 voice stereo/128 mono. This is fairly standard across the synth workstation market. Montage offers 128 stereo/128 mono-Curious! And even-though the other engine, the FM type is listed at 128 voices, Yamaha never says mono or stereo, so you can be sure it is probably mono. What I want to know is whether the system puts out 128 voice FM PLUS 128 voice AWM2 simultaneously. Does anyone know?

It’s 128 voices, either stereo or mono, period, divided amongst the parts. So if you have 8 parts in a performance, 4 of them AWM,4 FM, you still have the 128-voice poly limit. Obviousy
if you’re playing an 8-part performance and playing lots of notes and using the sustain pedal, you will run out of polyphony.

The system does not distinguish between a stereo waveform and a mono waveform. In other words, stereo waveforms don’t take up twice the polyphony. How does Montage do this? I don’t know exactly, ask the Yamaha engineers.
Last edited by aron on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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EvilDragon
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Post by EvilDragon »

So why isn't it fixed on the website and the FAQ? If it's wrong, it should be fixed as quickly as possible.

I'm still not convinced in this statement. A video showing the polyphony limit would be nice.
aron
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Post by aron »

I just posted the conversation. I asked him about the multiple parameters per knob 1-8. In the manual it implies that there is only parameter per knob.

Notice that the official specs never say 128 + 128 - never uses the plus sign. Not only that, do you really think Yamaha would pass up being able to say 256 note polyphony?

256 note polyphony is not as amazing as it once was with even my $1000 Privia having it.
Last edited by aron on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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EvilDragon
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Post by EvilDragon »

If that's the case well that sucks hard. Definitely not worth the money.


Still... I'd wait for parameter guide.
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Post by Jan1 »

aron wrote:I do not see anything in the manual regarding morphing. I will therefore assume it is not there.
That's disappointing.
I have heard the verb 'morph' used quite a few times, and I also read about the supposed morphing functionality of the superknob, such as here and here.

Re polyphony: nevermind, next post explains what I meant
Last edited by Jan1 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

aron wrote:> it's 128 note polyphony for each engine

Sadly it is not. That feature spec was incorrect. It's 128 notes no matter what combination. That quote I have is directly from Dave Polich the programmer.
The Polyphony of the Montage is as follows:

AWM Engine: 128 Stereo Voices (Max) (twice the Motif for stereo sample voices)
FM-X: 128 Voices (Max)


Each engine has it's own 128 voices (max) -confirmed by numerous sources: Yamaha's web site, Yamaha rep at NAMM, Yamaha rep on a forum confirming it; in the manual (they indicate 128 voices per engine (if shared, they's say that))...
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Post by Jan1 »

Maybe I should have drank another cup of coffee before I wrote my reply.

I was thinking of the situation where you have one performance of AWM parts on MIDI channel 1, another performance of FM voices on MIDI channel 2.
If you play a sequence using one track for channel 1 and another for channel 2, then you should get a 256 voice polyphony in total from the Montage, right?
But within the structure of one performance the limit of 128 voices remains since neither FM or AWM can exceed the 128 voice limit.
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

I think we're splitting hairs a bit - but - even in the scenarios you mention - it is important to note that, say for layered sounds, you can play 256 voices - 128 from AWM and 128 from FM. It's important from a number of note polyphony point of view - when layering.

it means you get to layer AWM and FM voices with each not stealing the polyphony of the other - when playing on the keyboard.
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Post by aron »

Kevin,

Let's wait and see David was very clear. 128 voices total no matter what combination. He has the instrument, we don't. They never say 256 polyphony. They never use the plus + symbol.

Find one instance where they mention 256 like CASIO mentions all over their website. If it was 256 they would be plastering it everywhere.

I just did a search for 'shared' in the manual. Can't find it. They mention the 'and' word but it is still unclear.
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