Flagship upgrades

[blazerunner]

All of those keyboards have their perks. Yamaha and Roland are updated on the usability and adaptability factor. Korg left us dead in the water with the Kronos. You could never convince me that they couldn't have given it some worth while OS updates to bring it on par with current era of music.

I don't believe anyone can truly tap into the depths of this keyboard until they've mastered the sequencer on the Kronos. It's truly quit something and as far as the Workstation Factor goes I haven't seen Roland or Yamaha being able to compete with it. In Workstation form that is what separates the Kronos from everything else. The sequencer is ungodly. It pains me knowing how much better it could be if they had updated it. It's like Korg's version of Protools.

The other flagships have great sounds and are fun. I tried them all before going with the Kronos. As a pure workstation user the Kronos won me over with it's sequencer though. The ability to create full songs on there and the features you have is something you could really only accomplish in a DAW.

The Kronos sequencer has been my recording studio for quite sometime and I've put in quite some hours inside that screen. I always wanted to know what Korg could have turned it into if they ever choose to finally update it.

I've seen the trend of Roland's taking over studios in place of the Kronos. I think that comes down to Roland's business model of updating stuff rather than throwing it away for something new. They make their products change overnight with updates. It makes them very useful and I actually envy that. Korg has refused to do that with their workstations over the years leaving them to just age poorly.

I personally couldn't say if I would buy a Korg workstation again. Just seeing how Korg abandons projects and leaves you hanging wouldn't make me feel comfortable. They have very deaf ears when it comes to delivering what consumers asked for and it has hurt them in the workstation department. Korg workstations aren't the "go to" choice anymore and it's Korg's own faults for desecrating their own brand by scaling back instead of building forward.

I would have PTSD going into a Korg Flagstation Synth purchase. I'd have to wonder that if I dropped $4K on a new workstation how long before the new X,ES,Platinum, Gold, or 2 model comes out. I'd have to know what is the product support going to be like. Will there be updates at all? Sound Expansions? New Engines/features etc.

Because despite everything the Kronos does ownership has been a nightmare as Korg scarcely supported this product. The Kronos has a lot of untapped potential that it will never reach because of that failure for the company to recognize it. Sometimes I wonder if even they knew what they had.

[ChrisDuncan]

I'm a DAW user so I never really used the Kronos sequencer. That said, one of the selling points of the Fantom was their Ableton-esque loop based sequencer. I wouldn't use it to replace my DAW, as I'm a heavy Cubase user. However, I thought it was a really nice design for capturing ideas quickly without having to go into geek mode. One of the things that immediately put me off with the Kronos sequencer was when I discovered that the song wouldn't be there after a restart. I would have to go hunting for it in the file system and reload it. Very, very clumsy.

I haven't had the Montage M very long, so I haven't explored their sequencer. However, at first glance it seems to be more in the direction of the Kronos, and it may well underperform in comparison. In any event, it doesn't scream ease of use for idea capturing the way the Fantom does. However, if the sequences are all there after a restart without having to grab a floppy disk (or do something that feels very much like it), that would be a significant usability edge in my case.

I really wonder what their R&D conversations are. If I had to wager a guess, it would be that the Oasys platform has so much horsepower and configurability that they don't want to let go of it. It would obviously be a huge project to do it all again from scratch. Even if they kept the Linux / Oasys engine under the hood and just did a UI redesign it would be no small effort. Changing the color of the screens to blue in the Nautilus isn't exactly what I'd call a UI redesign (insert your blue screen jokes here).

Every company wants to milk thier tech for as long as they can (Roland is the master of this, reselling the Jupiters / Junos / et al in a gazillion different ways). But if Korg wants to ride this pony until it drops, they really need to do a major overhaul. Compared to Roland and Yamaha, the Kronos looks very 1985.

[HardSync]

An ability to auto-load .SNGs or perhaps to load sequences on demand when selecting a song from the set list for example would be massive improvement to all of Korg's workstations. I wonder how difficult it would be to implement that feature and whether there are specific limitations in the OS architecture that prevents it. Memory thing maybe? I don't know.

It's kind of weird that we can't do it. It may not be a simple thing, but it feels like it should be a simple thing to do.

As for wondering what R&D conversations are like, I suspect that they wish they could do a lot more, but budget constraints and sales/marketing mandates limit what they can actually do. Engineers and designers are rarely given free reign to do what they want. They often have their own wish list but there isn't money to develop it. Also consider that these groups tend to be quite small and there's never enough time. (This is my personal experience working in R&D, which is huge fun and enormously frustrating at the same time.) So if you want to see improvements or new things from Korg, I'd suggest politely complaining to their sales and marketing people at events and whatnot. They tend to control budgets and price points for new products.

Anyway, I don't see any reason why Korg can't keep using the Linux-based OASYS architecture for years and years, hopefully with an improved, more modern UI. See above paragraph about who to talk to...

[Derek Cook]

My primary excitement about the Kronos engines is that they're in hardware form. I chose Kronos over the original Montage because it seemed like the K had more horsepower in this regard with nine engines.

Once you get into plugins, however, you're competing with a huge array of offerings, from big companies like Native Instruments down to a gazillion boutique developers, all of whom specialize in this area.

Comparing the Kronos hardware to the Montage or Fantom is reasonably straightforward. Comparing a Korg plugin collection for EPs, pianos or anything else would require a lot more research, and it may not compete as favorably in that category.

I'm guessing I am looking to the day when my Kronos breaks and I need to recreate what it does. A working second hand version is the obvious option of course.

But If the critical engines are available in VST form, I probably would not bother trying to find another Kronos and would replace it with a good five octave controller.

On top of what is already in the Korg Collection, I would need HD-1, AL-1 and STR-1. I have plugins that could replace CX-3 and SGX-1.

I understand that Stephen Kaye is working on a new version of KARMA that will come as a plugin in as well. If that is true, that is all of my Kronos bases covered.

[ChrisDuncan]

sales/marketing mandates limit what they can actually do.

Man, ain't it the truth?

There was a joke in my first book about how Marketing rules the software world, including them staggering into the dev office after a three martini lunch saying, "Hey, guys, for the xyz feature, how long will it take?"

Devs huddle and calculate, then tell the marketing guy 6 months if they pull a lot of overtime.

Marketing guy says, "Yeah, but we just did a press release saying it would be out at the end of the month, so hey, guys, how long will it take?"

All the money in the R&D account (and every other bank account for that matter) is generated by Marketing, so maybe Korg marketing guys just don't see any more money to be made by competing with other, more modern, flagships.

I would disagree with this sentiment and wonder why they might think that way, but something about three martini lunches comes to mind.

[ChrisDuncan]

I'm guessing I am looking to the day when my Kronos breaks and I need to recreate what it does.

I understand that Stephen Kaye is working on a new version of KARMA that will come as a plugin in as well. If that is true, that is all of my Kronos bases covered.

In terms of replicating all the hard work you've put in should there be a failure, yeah, the vst collection makes a ton of sense in that regard.

I didn't know that Stephen was working on a plugin version of KARMA, although that seems like the inevitable thing to do. I can't imagine it not doing massively well.

If you had to retool to a controller and a laptop, as long as you could get the other engines you'd be good to go. Of course, there's always that pesky "trusting a computer " thing, but maybe I just have trust issues.

[kronoSphere]

Concerning the Kronos: 3 unbearable things (among others) that were not in 2011 but have become in 2024.
1 / The Kronos sequencer (which I have been using since its birth) has not been improved by Korg in 13 years of existence! What a shame!

2 / The Kronos Drum patterns are outdated and there are always too many notes where it would have been much more skillful and lively to put a lot less. A shame also from every point of view.

3 / And above all: How slow the system is, which is still at version 3.** with only a few miserable little changes.

4 / The SAMPLING part of the Kronos is simply ridiculous in 2024

Times they are a-changin' ...

[ChrisDuncan]

Well, this thing was created a decade ago, which is 7 decades in dog years and 7 centuries in tech years. With the existing architecture I would imagine there's only so much they can do without new hardware. All that's left is to just polish the bumpers (or sell new models in different colors). Something about putting lipstick on a pig would normally come to mind, but the Kronos is a pig like a Harley is a hog. I hope I hold up this well when I'm at the same relative age.

When I got the Fantom it didn't really compare to the Kronos in my world because I've never used the sequencer in the K, and it's a major feature in the F. And the F is all about modeled sounds, which works great for classic Roland synths but to me doesn't compare with the sampled instruments in the K. So, like a parent with more than one child, I love them both, and see strengths in each.

Then I got the Montage M8x. The quality of sound is outstanding, but it doesn't make me love the K's sounds any less. The one thing, however, that makes me reach for the M is that keybed, and the dynamics I can get from it. There are a lot of reasons for Korg to put out a new flagship with modern hardware, but this is the thing that jumps out at me the most. No matter how I tweak the K's velocities, the dynamic range on pianos isn't even in the same room as the M. I don't know how much of this is the K's keybed and how much of it has to do with how things are sampled, etc., but increasingly when I want to play piano, it's the M that I reach for.

That said, there are a lot of other sounds where the dynamic range isn't as big a factor as it is with a piano, and there are a lot of sounds I like in the K that the M doesn't provide, at least not out of the box.

If Korg ever does decide to come out with new hardware, one would imagine that it would be something that puts the Fantom and Montage to shame (otherwise why release it?). And that would take some doing. So I'm kinda hoping they screw around for a few more years before doing the next Big Release. It'll give my credit cards time to heal.

And if they don't? I still love the Kronos and can't imagine being without it.

[HardSync]

I suppose technically it's quite a bit older than 7 centuries in tech years, if we start counting from when the OASYS was released. That was 2005, I think...? We're easily back in ancient times here. LOL. Certainly there's scope for modernization.

Chris, as for the piano dynamics thing with the Kronos versus the Montage, normally I'd recommend hooking up those two together and seeing if you get a better response on the Kronos pianos using the Montage's keyboard. But since you have all of your boards in entirely different rooms, that's not really a solution. (Your next project should be to network all of those rooms somehow so you can play and hear all of your gear no matter which room you're in. Good luck!)

Anyway, you've probably seen the other topics here of people discussing the RH3 keybed and velocity dynamics. I recall reading that some people had improved it by using software on their computers to alter the velocity curves. Some of them made their own custom curves. Just wondering what else you've tried to improve the Kronos pianos dynamics, if anything. Still, nothing wrong with preferring the Yahama's action and response. And really, sometimes you just want to play and not deal with any of that stuff.

[ChrisDuncan]

I always record midi, and there's a song I'm working on now with a wide dynamic range that's just piano and vocal. I'm still polishing it up, but after I record it on the Montage I'll render on both keyboards. That will highlight what differences there are that relate exclusively to the piano patches themselves rather than the keybed.

I did spend a little time looking into the velocity options on the Kronos, but this only came to my attention once I had the Montage as a point of reference. My solution is, as you mentioned, to just play the Montage when the dynamics are important rather than expend a lot of energy trying to make the Kronos something it's not.

However, when practicing basics such as scales, arps, etc. I want the Kronos because it's not as easy to play as the Yamaha and is a better workout for building chops.

And yes, I was sitting on the couch just yesterday wondering if I should pull audio and midi cable to network all three together. I got over that quickly.

When I had the Fantom set up with the Kronos I found the synth keybed didn't get used much (and I bought the 7 to get comfortable with synth keybeds) because I'd just play the Kronos 88 and point to the Fantom. I actually like them being situated so that they're each the star of the show. When the house was built I had cat 5 run in every room upstairs and downstairs, so no matter which keyboard I'm at, Cubase and all my network projects are right there. That's networked enough for my needs.

That said, the one decision I did make yesterday was to move the Montage into the living room and have the Kronos in the office. The living room keyboard is on all day so that I can just walk up and play a little piano on my way to get coffee, so I wanted to make the Montage my daily driver. Of course, when testing the Kronos in the office to make sure it was all hooked up correctly, I didn't get up for 15 minutes because I was engrossed in playing the Kronos. Overall very happy with the setup.

[HardSync]

I can see why you got over the idea of that. You'd definitely want to avoid running all that cabling between rooms. You'd want to keep it all digital I'd think, using what you already have installed. It is possible to network MIDI over TCP/IP. I imagine digital audio could be done too. I have never tried nor looked into these things, as I've kept everything in one room and using strictly analog kit, so I have no idea what sort latency issues might arise or not. Dreams for another day perhaps.

So the velocity curve options... I've never been keen on curve 9, the one that is specifically designed for the RH3 keybed. There's a really abrupt change on that curve that doesn't respond well with my playing style. When you do port over your project from the Yahama to the Korg, keep in mind how those curve options will affect incoming MIDI data. The Convert Position Pre-MIDI and Post-MIDI settings are what I'm talking about, and these will affect how the pianos sound when receiving MIDI data. There's a handy chart in the Parameter Guide at the beginning of the Global section that covers this, shows the curves and explains how the Convert Position affects things. You may find you'll want to switch back and forth between those settings so you can choose appropriate curve options depending on whether you're playing or receiving MIDI data. I think by default received MIDI is processed using curve 4.

[ChrisDuncan]

I had forgotten about the midi curves, thanks for that. I'm not wild about that concept, honestly, as I would prefer them to just let incoming midi be what it is rather than monkeying around with it. If I played a note at velocity 97, it should bloody well show up on the Kronos as 97. But perhaps there's a default option that says just honor the actual incoming velocity value. I haven't really checked because I was only looking at velocity for playability.

For networked audio, Dante is the thing these days. You can do dedicated audio over cat5, but that doesn't always play nice with tcp/ip since the cables primarily carry my computer networking. From a brief glance, it looks like Dante in conjunction with tcp/ip is fine.

That said, Dante gear is just stupid expensive relative to the functionality and price of other gear. Even for a stereo pair, if you use tx / rx boxes from a quality company like Radial, you're looking at $1200. For a stereo pair. If you explore higher channel counts, you're into multiple thousands of dollars. I don't believe the prices reflect the cost of manufacturing in the slightest, so my guess is that it's a licensing thing. If you're running a commercial studio it's worth the money, but there is no reasonable entry point for small channel count / low cost home studios.

There's wireless MIDI, though I don't know how reliable it is. Anything wireless is subject to interference, and without audio routed as well there would be little point. And I wouldn't even think about uncompressed audio over wireless.

And honestly, it bugs me that there isn't a reasonable alternative for distributing audio that doesn't require me pulling cables. Not because I actually need it, but just because I'm a geek who likes to do the things that are possible to do. But only up to a certain price point. Four grand on a flagship workstation? Fine. The bang for the buck is absolutely there. Thousands of dollars to distribute Dante throughout the house? Not worth it for my use case. The geek in me can get over it.

[blazerunner]

Concerning the Kronos: 3 unbearable things (among others) that were not in 2011 but have become in 2024.
1 / The Kronos sequencer (which I have been using since its birth) has not been improved by Korg in 13 years of existence! What a shame!

2 / The Kronos Drum patterns are outdated and there are always too many notes where it would have been much more skillful and lively to put a lot less. A shame also from every point of view.

3 / And above all: How slow the system is, which is still at version 3.** with only a few miserable little changes.

4 / The SAMPLING part of the Kronos is simply ridiculous in 2024

Times they are a-changin' ...

Yes my friend absolutely.

The Sequencer really shows it's age in a lot of areas. The FX on the Kronos is also one of those things that would have been nice to get constant updates on. So many new FX styles have come out and become popular over the years and the Kronos really feels far behind the music world now.

That was really something simple Korg could have kept up to date with by having new downloadable FX same as new effect VST pop up all the time. I was thinking about how I have to chain 5-6 FX sometimes just to do what one effect VST can do out the gate without all that.

That's just one thing but I wouldn't bother going into my real thoughts about what the sequencer is lacking or needs fixed because this post would look like a phone book.

I really feel that SAMPLER comment. The Kronos has the worst Sampler I have ever used in my life. It is the most overly complex yet completely feature bland sampler that I have ever used. There is no payoff for the headache you go through sampling on this keyboard. The Kronos doesn't have anything in its Sampler engine that's going to make your sample stand out above the rest. It's is very average and it kind of shocked me how something so cumbersome lacked so many basic sampler capabilities.

I recall years ago asking if the Kronos had any software that let you drag and drop samples into the keys. Unfortunately it doesn't and you have to manually map samples to keys. That's insane given the process it requires and the fact that many of us have thousands of samples we like to go through and customize.

On the Triton the Sampler was my bestfriend. It was so easy and fun to use. I don't know what they did to make the Sampler on the Kronos so terrible but I don't ever bother with it anymore. I just used my Akai for that. It's really shocking to go to the Sampler and see how far behind it is compared to what samplers do now. As much as people love samplers it says a lot when people avoid the sampler on a Keyboard that was an industry flagship.

That being said I have made a few kits with the sampler. It is such a weird process from how you record, how you edit,how you save and to how you load. It feels so half baked and after thought. It's definitely is a process that should have been streamlined long ago. I really wanted to use the Sampler on the Kronos to house my samples and make Kits galore but it's too cumbersome to take on that task.

The second half of that is how samples react in the sequencer. It's buggy. Depending on how long your sample is turning an audio file into midi data changes its behavior for the worst sometimes.

I know sometimes on here it feels like I'm beating the lemon juice out the Kronos but I used this Keyboard practically everyday for the past 7 years or so when I got it. You know what it can do, what it can't do, what is going to be easy to do what isn't going to be easy do and what you feel like making it do and what isn't even worth your time trying to figure out.
The keyboard is all over the place and all it would have taken is for Korg to give it some TLC in the form of updates to make it a 10 across the board. Instead as time goes on these keyboards start to feel their age. Other devices and things have come into the gear world that make it less desirable to fool around with a Kronos.

But most off all I think what a lot of us long time users are not mentioning here is that the Kronos has become a boring Keyboard. A decade plus of the same sounds and features becomes very stagnant over time. Those updates really do give these workstations new life. Adding in more features and sounds gives you more inspiration to use and create with these things. The Keyboard that is a Jack of all trades but master of none because of a lack of updates isn't exactly exciting to play around with all the time. I'm a player that can sqeeze grape juice out of a raisin if need be but sometimes the inspiration for creativity requires more than just knowing how to play.

[ChrisDuncan]

So many new FX styles have come out and become popular over the years

One of the headline features for Montage and Fantom has been the shimmer / Big Sky reverb, currently very trendy.

[HUBA]

Concerning the Kronos: 3 unbearable things (among others) that were not in 2011 but have become in 2024.
1 / The Kronos sequencer (which I have been using since its birth) has not been improved by Korg in 13 years of existence! What a shame!

2 / The Kronos Drum patterns are outdated and there are always too many notes where it would have been much more skillful and lively to put a lot less. A shame also from every point of view.

3 / And above all: How slow the system is, which is still at version 3.** with only a few miserable little changes.

4 / The SAMPLING part of the Kronos is simply ridiculous in 2024

Times they are a-changin' ...

Yes my friend absolutely.

The Sequencer really shows it's age in a lot of areas. The FX on the Kronos is also one of those things that would have been nice to get constant updates on. So many new FX styles have come out and become popular over the years and the Kronos really feels far behind the music world now.

That was really something simple Korg could have kept up to date with by having new downloadable FX same as new effect VST pop up all the time. I was thinking about how I have to chain 5-6 FX sometimes just to do what one effect VST can do out the gate without all that.

That's just one thing but I wouldn't bother going into my real thoughts about what the sequencer is lacking or needs fixed because this post would look like a phone book.

I really feel that SAMPLER comment. The Kronos has the worst Sampler I have ever used in my life. It is the most overly complex yet completely feature bland sampler that I have ever used. There is no payoff for the headache you go through sampling on this keyboard. The Kronos doesn't have anything in its Sampler engine that's going to make your sample stand out above the rest. It's is very average and it kind of shocked me how something so cumbersome lacked so many basic sampler capabilities.

I recall years ago asking if the Kronos had any software that let you drag and drop samples into the keys. Unfortunately it doesn't and you have to manually map samples to keys. That's insane given the process it requires and the fact that many of us have thousands of samples we like to go through and customize.

On the Triton the Sampler was my bestfriend. It was so easy and fun to use. I don't know what they did to make the Sampler on the Kronos so terrible but I don't ever bother with it anymore. I just used my Akai for that. It's really shocking to go to the Sampler and see how far behind it is compared to what samplers do now. As much as people love samplers it says a lot when people avoid the sampler on a Keyboard that was an industry flagship.

That being said I have made a few kits with the sampler. It is such a weird process from how you record, how you edit,how you save and to how you load. It feels so half baked and after thought. It's definitely is a process that should have been streamlined long ago. I really wanted to use the Sampler on the Kronos to house my samples and make Kits galore but it's too cumbersome to take on that task.

The second half of that is how samples react in the sequencer. It's buggy. Depending on how long your sample is turning an audio file into midi data changes its behavior for the worst sometimes.

I know sometimes on here it feels like I'm beating the lemon juice out the Kronos but I used this Keyboard practically everyday for the past 7 years or so when I got it. You know what it can do, what it can't do, what is going to be easy to do what isn't going to be easy do and what you feel like making it do and what isn't even worth your time trying to figure out.
The keyboard is all over the place and all it would have taken is for Korg to give it some TLC in the form of updates to make it a 10 across the board. Instead as time goes on these keyboards start to feel their age. Other devices and things have come into the gear world that make it less desirable to fool around with a Kronos.

But most off all I think what a lot of us long time users are not mentioning here is that the Kronos has become a boring Keyboard. A decade plus of the same sounds and features becomes very stagnant over time. Those updates really do give these workstations new life. Adding in more features and sounds gives you more inspiration to use and create with these things. The Keyboard that is a Jack of all trades but master of none because of a lack of updates isn't exactly exciting to play around with all the time. I'm a player that can sqeeze grape juice out of a raisin if need be but sometimes the inspiration for creativity requires more than just knowing how to play.

Awesome post! I haven't used the Kronos much for different reasons, main one being that whenever I sit down trying to get a grasp on how to do things it pretty much feels like how you describe it. Highly capable on paper with so much potential but painfully slow and unnecessarily convoluted in actual use. Korg trying to squeeze the whole world into the screen at once, which BTW is pointing upwards into the air, doesn't help either. Nor does the lack of piano roll editing.

I wouldn't bother going into my real thoughts about what the sequencer is lacking or needs fixed because this post would look like a phone book.

Come on now. This is exactly the sort of thing I hope to find when researching gear. A passionate users honest in depth perspective. That's highly valuable info no matter how "subjective" it may come across to whoever. ANY in depth criticism/review is going to be subjective PERIOD. Create a new thread if necessary. I'll read it all and I'll enjoy it.