The Kronos Inner Workings - For the brave ones ;-)

Discussion relating to the Korg Kronos Workstation.

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roblof
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Post by roblof »

This made me thinking
You may not decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, or
otherwise reduce the Korg Software to a human-perceivable form,
except to the limited extent expressly permitted by applicable law.

In EC (where Heidar and I live) the directive says:
(15) The unauthorised reproduction, translation, adaptation or transformation of the form of the code in which a copy of a computer program has been made available constitutes an infringement of the exclusive rights of the author.

Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a reproduction of the code and translation of its form are indispensable to obtain the necessary infor­mation to achieve the interoperability of an indepen­dently created program with other programs.

It has therefore to be considered that, in these limited circum­stances only, performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of the program is legitimate and compatible with fair practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the authorisation of the right­holder.

An objective of this exception is to make it possible to connect all components of a computer system, including those of different manufacturers, so that they can work together.

Such an exception to the author's exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program.
In the US the deal is (DMCA (17 U.S.C. § 1201 (f)):
(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term 「interoperability」 means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
However, it may be the case that EULA in the US case can cause issues as it may override the DMCA (17 U.S.C. § 1201 (f) )

However, there is no "shrinkwrap" with EULA when you startup the kronos. As a matter of fact, buying a store sample or a used keyboard gives you no EULA-to-go - As my didn't.

As for breaching of any EULA, this is technically overrided by the official document received from Korg officials.

Since that go-ahead didn't come with any restriction as of its use it would be disputable if they could retract that in hindsight.

In the case of distributing modified code to enhance the software and to fix bugs, one never have to distribute korg software since all that is needed is a binary diff. This ensures that all that is distributed is the sole work of the distributor since it contains no other 3'rd party (i.e. korg) code.

I'm also curious to if what I've heard is true - That there exists modified keyboards, manufactured by korg, on the aftermarket where the OS has been altered to better suit arabic/asian countries and this without korg official involvement?
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SeedyLee
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Post by SeedyLee »

Hi Heider,

Whilst I can understand you must be disappointed, I can't say that I think Korg's response is unexpected. Terms relating to decompiling or disassembly of commercial software have accompanied almost every piece of proprietary commercial software I've used, the KRONOS included. Even software from IBM is covered by similar conditions, but I expect you already knew this ;)

Korg have invested heavily in the development of the KRONOS, an investment they have every right to protect. Whilst your intentions may be noble and for the greater good, Korg have no method of ensuring this is the case. Even if you were only interested in adding a few features, there would be little to stop you from learning may of the DSP techniques that were being employed or further learning about the protection mechanisms utlisied. There would be nothing to stop you releasing your own VST employing proprietary techniques, or releasing a PC version of the KRONOS software.

Music software is amongst the most pirated around, and whilst it doesn't seem like this was your intention, Korg are simply reacting in an effort to protect their substantial investment.

In the US, circumventing an encryption device is covered under the DMCA and I understand it carries quite harsh penalties. Not sure what the situation is in the UK.

I think if I was to start reverse engineering IBM DB2, and commenting about how poorly coded it is, IBM would take umbridge with that very quickly. It's always easy to look at a product that's gone to market and make observations about how it culd be improved - code is seldom perfect, even less so with the benefit of hindsight.

Personally, I have faith that Korg will continue to deliver improvements to the KRONOS in the form of software updates. They have no reason not to release updates. It is my opinion that they will want to get the longest life out of the KRONOS as possible, and they will do so by ensuring the KRONOS software remains competitive.
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One
roblof
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Post by roblof »

SeedyLee wrote:In the US, circumventing an encryption device is covered under the DMCA and I understand it carries quite harsh penalties. Not sure what the situation is in the UK.
Theoretically, what if you don't have to circumvent any encryption then? :roll:

As a side note (I could be wrong here) I seem to remember seeing statically linked gnu code into the kronos binaries. The GPL does not permit the mixing of closed and open-source elements. I.e. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23 ... _violation
Heider
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Post by Heider »

Hi Ojustaboo,...

Well, in regards to the license and all that, I wasn't sure when I was reading it, since part of it says "forbidden" but other parts says "it's ok, if we approve",... so..., I asked to clarify, you know the rest...

In regards to "if I had access to the source how long would it take me to release something?"... well, practically speaking, would take me about 7-14 days to learn the existing code (since it's high level languate), and maybe 5 minutes to know what's wrong or were to fix, and then another couple of hours to start changing on the first release, then it's up for them or users to start testing...

If they'd asked me to continue doing more because the like the results, then it would be 1-2 days to implement a complete new feature, and a day for alpha-testing, about a week to release I'd imagine...

In all honesty, with Korg's decision, my Kronos would be sitting here collecting dust or as good as a brick, not sure how I can use it with these limitations, probably thinking about chucking it on eBay or something, at least my wife would be VERY pleased that our living room is "finally free!!!" for having just the Clavinova left in the room for the kids to practice on for now, "to hell with the DADY :) ,... I need the room (yours' MRs. Sati)!" ...

By the way,... in regards to "how on earch did you break the encryption"... well... common, you are developing your product on an "open-source OS" (even if is "was" an open-source OS), or etc,... at least, due to the fact that "all source code is still out there all over the place to (understand) and re-compile that OS from scratch if you want anyway", what did you expect?!... it doesn't need a genius to tell you that having your own custom OS (not LINUX) developed fully in-house with whatever products you do on top,... might be a good idea?!...

I developed lots of stuff in my life before, I know lots about ins and outs of system and application programming, they always say I do a great job when working on something... all I was hoping for was to "just help" in making something nice and letting Korg to release it as they see fit, but that seems to have gone down the pan...

All the work I was hoping to do was at my spare time because I bought the Kronos as a hobby, nothing to do with the company I work for...,

By the way in case you wondered on how professional my code can be..., I work for a company ... called IBM, not sure if you have heard of that company before!

... and FACT: I LOVE my job... all this Kronos stuff is/was nothing but a hobby...

All I can say at the end, it's a sad day for me, very depressing day to work from home today by looking at the weather outside my house,...

Good luck, and God bless...

Lunch time is over,... back to work...

Kind Regards
Heider
Heider Sati
qayqaywsx
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Post by qayqaywsx »

Heider,
please feel my sympathy .
For me it is a depressing day since i read your thread , too.

I think the idea of diff packages is a good point to circumvent legal issues.
Luk84PL
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Post by Luk84PL »

Don't worry Heider!

You've done excellent job here!

Thanks to You all of us know that KRONOS can and it should be a better workstation.

And now KORG also knows we know this Truth so they should do something about it :)

PS. I hope despite to "Kay's" reply that your Wife will still have living room full of weird stuff ;)

God bless...
Kronos 88, Farfisa F1, nanoPAD2, Casio SA-10 :D
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Ojustaboo
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Post by Ojustaboo »

Heider wrote: and maybe 5 minutes to know what's wrong or were to fix, and then another couple of hours to start changing on the first release, then it's up for them or users to start testing...

If they'd asked me to continue doing more because the like the results, then it would be 1-2 days to implement a complete new feature, and a day for alpha-testing, about a week to release I'd imagine...
Which is exactly as I thought.

Yet customers are left waiting months by Korg, the people that actually designed and wrote the op system :roll:
bronswerk
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Post by bronswerk »

So Heider, they have bullied you. A company like Korg should be ashamed about themselves. You've done outstanding work so far and this is all they can say. Instead of making the Kronos better and use your experience and knowledge they think its better to threaten you with legal actions. If I were you I would continue your explorations for your own personal use (I've understand that's still possible) and make a nice Youtube video when your are done and say: "Hey look what I've done with my Kronos. Sorry, Korg won't let me make it public".

PS: No more Korg for me. This company is not playing nice.
bronswerk
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Post by bronswerk »

From Korg:
2. Cease all public or private communications related to this issue, including but not limited to posts on the Korg Forums, private messages ("PMs"), email, etc., with the sole exception of communications with Korg and its authorized agents
And what about this? Is this really possible, can they forbid you to SPEAK about a subject, without giving away sensitive information of course? I believed Korg had nothing to say about Korg Forums.
rikelliott
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Shame but I can understand it

Post by rikelliott »

I have been quietly watching this post and really enjoying it.

Thanks Heider!!!! You have kept me checking this thread avidly for the past weeks.

If you decide you need to sell the Kronos let me know. I have a 61 key but my wife is a piano teacher and she NEEDS!! the weighted keys.

I am only up the road in Hammersmith.

BTW I have had a 01wFD, Trinity, M3 and now Kronos. And I loved them all but I really love the Kronos sounds.

I just wanted it to be the ultimate workstation. Hardware is so cheap now. 128Gb SSD and 16Gb ram would be swell
Ksynth
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Post by Ksynth »

This is probably the result of Korg's legal advisors reacting to something they did not really research adequately.

I'd call it a knee jerk reaction.

Heider I would not let this stop me from contacting the relevant Korg people again to try to resolve the problem.

I know that may mean a fair bit of your precious time so perhaps you don't have any to spare. Completely understanable.

However, as you don't intend to make personal gains from this I can't see how they can stop you providing general information.

I hope you keep going with this astouding work. What a great opportunity Korg is missing here.

Best wishes and many thanks.
bronswerk
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Post by bronswerk »

And so this thread is no longer a sticky. I wonder how long it will take before it's completely removed. Korg is showing their power.
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Sharp
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Post by Sharp »

Sticky pin removed....
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Sharp
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Post by Sharp »

bronswerk wrote:And so this thread is no longer a sticky. I wonder how long it will take before it's completely removed. Korg is showing their power.
That's just silly.
I removed the sticky pin simply because the topic of this thread is not going to go much further at this stage.

Regards
Sharp.
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Comrad_Durandal
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Post by Comrad_Durandal »

I am forced to wonder if things would have been different if one sought official permission, in writing, to do work with the Kronos in terms of software. Generally, such permissions do come with some NDAs but if what your looking for is a way to make something marketable for it - then generally releasing internal details about the device is secondary anyway.

Oh well, I've always viewed the workstation as an appliance anyway - though the geek in me is always interested in what goes on under the hood.
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