Almost all CX3 Factory Sounds overdriven internally!

[MRedZac]

Hello @ all !

While programming my new Drawbar Collection 1, I found out, that almost all the CX3 factory sounds do "internally overdrive" - No, I don´t mean the tube amp emulation, I mean the sound engine by itself, even before the output sound reaches internally the Kronos outputs.

You will hear these bad scratching noises of digital overdrive especially while playing chords with CX3 rotary sounds in the upper octaves... First I thought, the reason why I hear these noises might be broken loudspeakers, but then I tried to listen on different pairs of speakers, recorded some of the CX3 sounds to my DAW through the optical connection and as well listened to them by headphones, connected to the headphone output: It´s everywhere the same - no matter if you lower the master volume or not - It´s always there and was also confirmed by some other guy on a german forum, where I posted the problem already this afternoon.


I found out, that on the display, there´s a tab in EXi1 called Amp/Rotary, where you can set near the bottom line a Main Output for the CX3 Engine... Only if you lower the volume there down to something like 30, the digital overdrive will disappear (of course, this does not affect the overdrive tube emulation for some old sounding hammond sounds, it just lowers the output volume in total for the CX3 Engine...)

I suppose, Korg made some kind of big mistake in programming this - either in the sound programming or in programming the engine itself!

It is nescessary to edit every single programm now, to get rid of the problem... But this brings another problem: In comparison with the other sounds, the corrected organ sounds are slightly less loud now...

Of course, in my Drawbar Collection 1, I already took care of this problem and these sounds will not digitally overdrive the engine output at all... See my signature below for more info...

Cheers
Garfield

[michelkeijzers]

I don''t hear it, but maybe because I put all volumes of set list slots (which I normally use) to 100 which decrease the level already a bit.

[jeebustrain]

I hear it - and a friend of mine who came over to dive into the Kronos heard it as well... it's a really harsh artificial sound only on the upper octaves.

Problem for me is that on the organ programs that I've built, the Output value is already under 30 (most of them are based around the same base sound, around 27 or so).

I'd be interested to ultimately compare a couple of your programs to mine.

[Mutter]

yes i have been bothered by this i figured that i did something my self to cause it. some times it was real bad then other times it didn't seem to be their at all. this happend with my oasys when playing several notes at once. i will check this on kronos when i get home

[MRedZac]

I'd be interested to ultimately compare a couple of your programs to mine.

Well, I suggest you listen to the demo then: http://mediacoustics.eu/drawbar1.mp3

Until all sounds were not scratching anymore, I had to record it something like 10 times...

Maybe I´ll send you some of these for testing during the day...

[shawnhar]

Sorry, but I have to object to the wording of your poll questions \

I know full well what digital distortion sounds like, but I don't hear a problem. Come on, if you're going to do a poll, please don't word the options so as to disparage those who happen to disagree with you!

[MRedZac]

Sorry, but I have to object to the wording of your poll questions \

I know full well what digital distortion sounds like, but I don't hear a problem. Come on, if you're going to do a poll, please don't word the options so as to disparage those who happen to disagree with you!

Where do you not hear a problem ? - On your Kronos while playing full chords with rotary sounds in upper octaves or on my demo file... Of course, on my demo file there´s none of it left...

[shawnhar]

I don't hear a problem using CX3 sounds (either preset or my own) on my Kronos. I like some of the presets, not so much others, but I don't hear unintentional distortion in any of them, and I think it's a little out of order to imply that anyone who doesn't hear this must not know what distortion is (what, you think all the Korg sound designers don't know that???)

[MRedZac]

I don't hear a problem using CX3 sounds (either preset or my own) on my Kronos. I like some of the presets, not so much others, but I don't hear unintentional distortion in any of them, and I think it's a little out of order to imply that anyone who doesn't hear this must not know what distortion is (what, you think all the Korg sound designers don't know that???)

Counterquestion: Do you think all we, who hear it, are stupid ?

[jerrythek]

What you are describing is an intentional part of the design of the stand-alone CX-3 keyboard, and the CX-3 engine used in the OASYS and Kronos. From page 236 of the Kronos Manual:

Amp Gain [00...99]
This adjusts the gain when Amp Type is set to Type 1 or Type 2. It does not apply if the Amp Type is set to PreAmp.
Expression also adjusts the drive into the Amp section. With higher Amp Gain settings, you’ll get more overdrive and distortion as you increase the Expression amount. For more information, see “4–2b: Expression,” on page 227.

To put the manual-speak into English, on a real Hammond through a Leslie as you increase the volume using the expression pedal you can get increased internal overdrive, or distortion. Of course it depends on the settings of your Leslie, but there are innumerable examples of heavily overdriven organ sounds in rock and blues that come from this combination. I'm not talking about Jon Lord playing straight into a Marshall.

So the Amp Gain parameter of the CX-3 interacts with the expression level set in the program, and your use of an expression pedal. Pull the pedal back and the distortion will lessen, push it up and it will increase. So you should not only consider the Amp Gain value, but also the expression value, which can be found on the Tone Adjust Page if you're not using a pedal.

The Amp Type 1 is a classic organ into Leslie preamp setting. Amp Type 2 is a recreation of Keith Emerson's classic setup from the early days, where he combined both real Leslies and a HiWatt guitar amp for a deeper overdriven sound.

Now... I am not making any value judgements on the quality of the tonality produced - that's for your taste to decide. But the presence and behavior of the distortion is intended and has a basis in the real workings of the modeled instrument(s).

I hope this info helps.

Jerry

[MartinHines]

I suppose, Korg made some kind of big mistake in programming this - either in the sound programming or in programming the engine itself!

Based on Jerry's comments, your statement is incorrect.

Given the Kronos CX-3 is the OASYS CX-3, which is based on the Korg CX-3, which has been around for at least 15 years, it would be hard to believe a "programming error" has been around for 15 years unnoticed until now.

[shawnhar]

I think it's a little out of order to imply that anyone who doesn't hear this must not know what distortion is

Counterquestion: Do you think all we, who hear it, are stupid ?

I try to avoid calling people stupid just because they have a different opinion to me

I do think it is overly melodramatic to say the CX3 "really sounds awful".

I also think if you are going to post a poll in the form "a) agree with my opinion, or b) hold some other opinion", it is not fair to tack "Maybe I don´t know what is meant by that?" onto the end of the second option!

[MRedZac]

What you are describing is an intentional part of the design of the stand-alone CX-3 keyboard, and the CX-3 engine used in the OASYS and Kronos. From page 236 of the Kronos Manual:

Amp Gain [00...99]
This adjusts the gain when Amp Type is set to Type 1 or Type 2. It does not apply if the Amp Type is set to PreAmp.
Expression also adjusts the drive into the Amp section. With higher Amp Gain settings, you’ll get more overdrive and distortion as you increase the Expression amount. For more information, see “4–2b: Expression,” on page 227.

To put the manual-speak into English, on a real Hammond through a Leslie as you increase the volume using the expression pedal you can get increased internal overdrive, or distortion. Of course it depends on the settings of your Leslie, but there are innumerable examples of heavily overdriven organ sounds in rock and blues that come from this combination. I'm not talking about Jon Lord playing straight into a Marshall.

So the Amp Gain parameter of the CX-3 interacts with the expression level set in the program, and your use of an expression pedal. Pull the pedal back and the distortion will lessen, push it up and it will increase. So you should not only consider the Amp Gain value, but also the expression value, which can be found on the Tone Adjust Page if you're not using a pedal.

The Amp Type 1 is a classic organ into Leslie preamp setting. Amp Type 2 is a recreation of Keith Emerson's classic setup from the early days, where he combined both real Leslies and a HiWatt guitar amp for a deeper overdriven sound.

Now... I am not making any value judgements on the quality of the tonality produced - that's for your taste to decide. But the presence and behavior of the distortion is intended and has a basis in the real workings of the modeled instrument(s).

I hope this info helps.

Jerry

Guys,

this is NOT what I´m talking about !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I´m talking about, that the main output volume of almost all the programms of CX3-Engine is overloading the Kronos internal "soundcard input", or lets say, it overloads the Kronos hardware.

It does not matter at all, if tube amp gain is set to minimum or maximum, it does not affect the problem.

The thing I´m talking about, is that you connect the Kronos by optical cables to a DAW, make correct leveling on the incoming signal at your DAW Soundcard, with absolutely no clipping and... - no matter if Amp Gain to 0 or to 99 - the recorded material digitally clips anyway. This clipping is caused by the output volume of the CX3 Engine, cause without changing anything in the described setup, I can record each others sound engine output without any kind of clipping in that! Only way to get rid of the clipping overdrive is to reduce the "MainOutput"-Volume to a minimum (which is setup on the same page as Tube Amp Gain)

The problem is, that you can hear this Kronos internally produced clipping also, if you just connect Kronos by normal jack wires to a PA or thru the headphones. It sounds a bit like the loudspeakers or headphones are not capable of the playing back the signal from Kronos. It scratches the sound.

Maybe the reason is, that the CX3 Engine has been taken 1:1 from Oasys to Kronos, without any changes, but now using different hardware inside the Kronos !? Who knows !

I just hope, you finally understood the problem itself !

[jerrythek]

You are saying "Tube Amp Gain" - meaning the MFX/TFX?

Have you tried disabling all IFX/MFX/TFX, and not changing any other output or gain stage volumes?

Jerry

[MRedZac]

You are saying "Tube Amp Gain" - meaning the MFX/TFX?

Have you tried disabling all IFX/MFX/TFX, and not changing any other output or gain stage volumes?

Jerry

Jerry,

here comes the proof of what I´m telling you:

To make clear what I did now for recording it to a mp3 file:

- I choose a factory preset from the preload content. In this case 017 Jazzy Organ 2 SW 1, which I don´t change at all.
- I connect the Kronos by optical SPDIF to the input of my DAW
- I open Cubase 6, leave the input at 0db (but it is the same if I lower the input volume) and if I play on the Kronos, even if the problem appears, I have absolutely no clipping on the DAW input, means that definetly, the problem is coming like that from Kronos to DAW.
- I play on the highest octave (I have Kronos 61) c-e-g and there´s nothing. I add above h-c, so that the complete cord is c-e-g-h-c and it´s scratching.
- Now, I set the Amp Gain in EXi1->Amp/VC/RotarySP to 00, just to exclude the possibility that it is comming from the amp gain, but the problem persists.

It is exactly the same phenomen if I connect the headphones, or if I connect the Kronos analog to a PA. So, the digitally scratching sound is produced definetly in CX3-Engine, before it reaches Kronos Outputs.
You can only get rid of it, if you lower the Main Output - Volume of this preset, which you can set on the bottom of the page, showed in the picture below. But by default it is set to 55 in preload content for this preset, and it is for almost all the presets, that the Main Output - Volume is set to high for the capabilities of Kronos internal soundcard.
If you just lower the Main Output to 30, the scratching sound is gone - but I don´t want to edit each single factory preset...

Listen to the recorded MP3 here:
http://mediacoustics.eu/clippingdemo.mp3
You hear the scratching coming to the sound, if I play h,c above in addition ? - Concentrate on the rotor...

And see the settings which were set while recording here on this picture:


I suppose it is not meant by design that the unchanged sounds of factory content digitally clip internally, no matter what is being played on the keyboard, is it ?

Cheers
Garfield