Korg Forums

Don't be fooled by the post's title -- this isn't about Bill Hicks.

I wasn't sure whether I should write this but I've decided I don't care. I don't know if this will be my last post here on Korg Forums, but I suspect it might be, because I'm angry and tired of it all. I've been posting on music forums and electronic mailing lists since the mid-90s, under various names. That isn't to say I'm an expert musician or even an expert on Internet forums. I'm just a regular guy, like most of you, who likes to play and create music. I am also a huge Korg fan and I've spent years learning about them. Despite the obvious issues Korg has, I love Korg stuff.

Throughout the last two decades, I've encountered just about every type of person you might ever meet in the forums. I've become friends with some, co-created with others. I've written how-to guides and wikis and released dozens of free sound banks for various synths -- chances are you've downloaded these, some of which have even been written about in popular musician's magazines. It's been a huge thrill to hear my sounds used in films -- people have sent me CDs of their stuff too. I mean, you live for stuff like that. Moreover, I've answered hundreds (maybe thousands) of requests for help and I hope that I have helped some of these people.

I never did any of these things for notoriety or to be popular. I just did it because I wanted to help -- I know what's it is like to struggle to figure out how to do something, and I've always believed it is worthwhile sharing knowledge. Because we're musicians, and that's what we do. We share not only musical knowledge but technical knowledge about our gear. That's what we've always done. Most of us don't have time to fuss about with the particulars, we just want it to work. Sharing what we know is how we can get down to doing what we all want to do, and that's to play music. And I get it completely that nothing kills creativity more than something not working they way you expect it to work.

Maybe I'm just getting old (I'm only 41), and incredibly grumpy, but I've really grown weary of doing this, because I find that more and more of you are ungrateful, inconsiderate and spoilt bastards from hell. Is it really so hard to acknowledge someone's reply to your post? Is it such a burden to say thanks? Or even to say, thanks but that didn't help?

Because when someone tries to help you and you don't even acknowledge them, that makes you an a**hole. There is no way around that. You're an a**hole if you do that. Plain and simple.

I'm certainly not saying that you should write, "Thanks, dude, you're awesome." Just a hat tip or a nod will do. I also get that it might take several days for you to respond. But if you never respond after months...?

I tend to find that first-time posters are the worst at this. But some of you carry on doing it for years. Even worse, some of you blame us who are trying to help you for your own lack of understanding of what the problem is or how to resolve it. You get snarky about it. Like it's our fault. Or you rant about Korg's inability to sate your every desire and workflow whim. You are incapable of even describing what is going on (and I'm not talking about language barriers) and yet you b*tch about it as if the only thing that matters is you. You guys, the ones who do this, are real a**holes.

I get it, though. You're a musician, not a technician. You're still an a**hole if you don't consider that all we're trying to do is help you.

So I'm going to give you a few tips. The first tip is that 90% or more of what you want to know is in the manual. Yes, I know it's huge. But you can search the PDFs for the text you want. If you don't understand what you're seeing, then say so when you post. Nobody will think less of you for that, because we get that sometimes the manuals don't adequately explain it (although I must admit that Dan Philips does an excellent job writing the manuals). But for the love of all that is holy and good, please stop being lazy and and look it up. Or try to. It's most often there. When I answer your questions, I got the info from the manual nine times out of ten. Seriously.

I know you won't though. Because it's easier to just write a new post about it, even though some guy wrote the exact same question only four posts earlier. You could have looked, but you didn't. I understand. Your busy. You have stuff to do. Nobody is more important than you.

Which leads me to the second tip, and that is if you aren't going to RTFM then do kindly search the f***ing forums for questions already asked and answered. This is not hard to do. Stop being lazy and look first to see if what you want has already been asked and answered. Take the five minutes or so and look. I promise it won't kill you. And hell, you might even learn something new when you stumble across an unexpected topic. And if you did look and couldn't find it, no problem. Just ask if someone can point you to the topic that probably covers what you want. I could live with that.

Yes, I get your busy and, yes, I get that taking time to look something up totally destroys your creativity. I get that because it destroys mine as well. But that's just how it works. The advantage gained here is that later, when you are feeling creative, you now know it and you don't need to look it up again.

Contrariwise to all of the above, there are lots of great people on these boards, far too many to name them all. Big Grime, Alland, Sharp (who runs it -- lord knows how he puts up with the same questions day in and day out, so much respect to Sharp) and quite a few others, for which I apologise for not including you in the list but you know who you are. We are all lucky to have them.

And if they do take the time to respond to your post, be a decent person and thank them. Because nothing is more disheartening than inconsiderate bastards who only think of themselves and just take without ever giving a simple thank you in return. Those people destroy the communities that are trying to be built here, and that's why I find it more and more difficult to contribute, even though I really want to contribute. I've never seen it as bad as it is now. There have always been real jerks on every forum. That will never change. I do wonder if the number is increasing or my tolerance level is decreasing. Maybe it's both.

In other words, please stop being a**holes and be part of the community. Take a little time and look for the info. If you cannot find it, OK, then that's all right. Let people know that you at least tried.

For those of you have been considerate, thank you very much. It was a pleasure helping you. I wish there were more like you. Sadly, you are a rarity these days.

Good post, HardSync, it needed to be said.

Agreed. Very good post. I'm sorry that it's got to the point that you feel you have to bow out of giving advice, and I can't say I blame you.

I'm one of those that asks advice now and again, and on the terms you mention, i.e., checking the manual, checking search functions and so on. Unfortunately, I don't have the head for the linear thinking that's need for figuring out solutions with our keyboards, so some of my questions seem pretty dumb, to me anyway - maybe it's an age thing for me, too. I have always made a point of thanking the person(s) who've gven their help over the years but, being only human, I may have missed that the odd time or two.

Anyway, if you are 'outta here', thanks for all you have done. It hasn't gone to waste.

Thanks, Charlie and Giner.

Even if I agree with your post, I would like to try to add some harmony to your Em.

First you surely now that about 80% of the forum members are there because of an issue with the object the thread is for. Let it be the inhability to understand some functionality, the manual or due a real issue with it. Once their problem get solved, about one half of them will return to "normal life" without reapearing again. I am sure every one of us has done this if the object is of low interest to ourselves once it works properly (like a toaster, dishwasher, etc.)
The other half may stay in the forum because they may find more valuable info and/or enjoy to participate on it.

The remaining 20% from above are those that came to the forum to get more info and details about the object and want to participate, share, discuss and learn about it.
These are the persons (lets call them supporters) who maintain a forum alive and with more or less effort (depending on the time they have left for it) try to help the others to find the solution to their issues.
It is fully legitimate and human for each supporter, to expect at least some gratitude or feedback (like a "it worked, thank you") at least for two reasons:
1. a solution was found
2. everyone's ego needs feeding to keep doing a good job

Now the ego feeding is something that is very individual and different to each person. Some need it more than others and I am not going to get deeper here. But I think that a good "supporter" has to make clear for himself, what he expects and whom he may help. He should learn to differenciate what are the issues that are worth a help and which not. He also has to learn to estimate what is the pledgers knowledge base or attitude to his problem (a 14 year old user may have different understanding than a lawyer )

So it is up to you to decide who you will give your help or not. If the answer is clearly in the manual and the pledger makes the impression that he even has unwrapped it, let him burn!

Finally it is you who have to decide if you stay on the role you have taken or not and what do you expect from it, but I hope you will stay within this forums as long as you have any Korg gear that still is attracting your interest.

At last, just let me state that the percentages and motivations mentioned here are only my personal estimations!

axxim, you make several excellent points. I'm not sure how close your percentage estimations are -- perhaps you've nailed it -- but I get what you're saying completely.

Ego is indeed a funny thing, and I certainly tried to disregard my ego when I ranted above. Whether I succeeded, I don't know. I've actually had this rant in my head for just under a year after dealing with a succession of topics that I replied to with (I hope) detailed and helpful answers without any kind of acknowledgments -- here and elsewhere. At the time, I decided to simply to take a break from the forums for a while rather than have a go at anyone.

In what seems like another lifetime, I used to work in design engineering, which is sometimes 90% problem-solving, 5% making the actual stuff, and 5% explaining everything you did to arrive at that point to a finished product. I'm grossly simplifying that, by the way. But I loved figuring stuff out and I enjoyed helping people learn how it was done. And that's how I approached answering people's questions on the forums. I often didn't even know the answer until I looked it up or worked it out. In fact, I did it for both myself and the questioner. It was educational for me, too. But even so, when the same people post question after question without even bothering to work things out (for various reasons, some perfectly legit) and then do not even say thanks -- well, I do choose to stop helping them. Likewise for those who just b*tch ceaselessly about things not working without even trying to understand why.

If I have a fatal flaw, it's likely to be that I hold certain expectations -- which you have rightly pointed out. For me it's about "common courtesy." But the Internet is a funny beast with a strange mix of even funnier people, so I concede expecting anything resembling courtesy is likely to be an error on my part.

HardSync wrote:If I have a fatal flaw, it's likely to be that I hold certain expectations -- which you have rightly pointed out. For me it's about "common courtesy." But the Internet is a funny beast with a strange mix of even funnier people, so I concede expecting anything resembling courtesy is likely to be an error on my part.

I think everyone has more or less this flaw. But not everyone is going to fullfill your expectations, which would make this a perfect world (at least for you)
But even if one of 10 or even 100 catches your attitude and applies it to others, will be a step forward.
I for myself use to be sarcastic with such dumb questions if I have the time for it. If not, then I just ignore them.

By the way, while I am reflecting here about such attitudes, I want to say "Thank You" to Sharp, X-trade, mikemolloyuk and last but not least Pepperpotty for their time and effort on this forum, which usually seems obvious to all of us!

HardSync,

Seems a gross injustice to relegate this subject to the relative Siberia of "Off Topic".

I think it needs to be seen by everyone.

...and oh, yeah.

Thanks,



BB

You're right, axxim. I should look at it that way... maybe I used to. I dunno.

And BB, you're one of the guys on the list who tries to help,someone I didn't mention by name. But you knew that. I hope. You do now, if you didn't. It's in the off topic section because, correct me if I'm wrong, I can't see where else it belongs so I posted it here.

Hardsync, sorry but I disagree with most of your post.

Thanks is nice and I usually do thank people when they have answered a particular question. Sometimes I forget though.

But when I do say thanks, I'm not going to thank every poster, I'll wait a few days and post a general thanks for all the help.

Nothing worse than a forum where half the posts are thanking people, it makes a very boring read.

I also don't post expecting thanks, if I've helped someone all well and good. Typing isn't like speaking, it's easy to get engrossed in thinking and typing and totally forget the thanks word.

It also isn't used as you or I might use it in many other countries.

I recently joined a dog forum, asked one simple question, went out of my way to explain what I was asking and what I wasn't etc, reading the first four replies, I thought sod that, if that's your attitude to new members, I'm off, so no they didn't receive any form of acknowledgment from me at all.


Searching the forums. Well in all honesty if people searched the Internet for the answers to their questions, 99% of forums could be locked and be just read only. Nearly every question has been answered before somewhere.

OK something like the Kronos is new, but even then, most everyday forum questions have been asked before.

The korg forums would be dead if people did as you suggest and I wouldn't be on here a few times a day reading all the new threads as people wouldn't be posting them.

Then if someone did have a question no one had asked before and they stumbled across this forum, they would think it pointless asking here as hardly anyone posts.

Also, someone's question might well have been answered by three people four weeks ago, but another korg user who didn't read that post four weeks ago may read the newer post and could have a better solution than was given.

We may as well stop talking in real life to our friends because most of what is said has been said before etc.


Being told to read the manual is my pet hate. I say this as someone who has managed a high end supercomputer installation and trained many members of staff.

If someone was working for me as say a trainee systems administrator, then if they had a non urgent problem, I would guide them to the areas they need to look at, whether in a manual or whatever, as I need them to learn to find solutions to their problems themselves, and them spending a couple of hours working out for themselves is time well spent for the experience gained rather than me giving them the solution in 30 seconds.

If however one of the many users of our computers had a problem, the user wants to get their work done, they just want the answer as quick as possible to allow them to continue. They aren't being selfish, they simply have different priorities.

Same on here. Someone interested in learning to program sounds from scratch, needs to do a lot of reading (and probably not only the Kronos manuals). Such a person will usually already be the type of person that has no problems reading the manuals and getting the info.

Then you get another Kronos user, the musician that just wants to play, and wants everything to be in plain English terms and a lot probably haven't the faintest idea of what for example an LFO is.

Those people are playing their music, they have a problem, they see reams of pages all containing a language they don't really understand, they spend 5 mins looking, get completely confused, then come onto a forum like this one and ask for help.

Then someone who could answer their question in 30 secs, tells them to go away and read the manual.

Which one of those, the guy asking the question or the guy that knows the answer but tells him to read the manual, in all honesty would you say was the biggest a**hole?

Sure a few people are lazy, but I think many more just get frustrated at trying to put their point across in a way that's understood (not talking language barriers) and end up going back to their kronos none the wiser.

Best way personally I can describe it is when a few years ago I was on the Gentoo Linux forum. All my working life I've worked on UNIX based computers, hence learning Linux was a piece of cake for me.

I used to see person after person get put off Gentoo because they got stuck and people told them to rtfm. But what the people telling them to rtfm couldn't grasp, is that when you know something well, if you get stuck, searching through the manuals for a solution is really easy.

You know what sort of things to search for, you understand how they relate to other things that the manual talks about etc.

Someone new to it, telling them to search will only confuse them more.

People could have a problem, be totally lost, I could spend 15 mins of my time reading the manual and getting the solution for them. But chances are, they could have spent 3 hours reading the same pages as me, over and over again, but because I fully understand how it works and they don't, after their three hours they still wouldn't have their answer.

Also some people naturally seem to have a knack, whether a new synth, new programming language or whatever of being able to pick up a manual (or search a pdf version these days) and easily find what they are looking for.

Most people don't have that ability.

I've seen a few threads here in the past few weeks where people have been quite rude to the OP in my opinion telling him to rtfm or use the search function.

We were all new once

As for holding certain expectations, sure a bit of politeness isn't a lot to ask. The world would be a better place in my opinion if everyone lived by my moral values but I bet you wouldn't agree with many of them.

Everyone has different expectations and everyone acts in different ways when put under the same situation.

I always try my hardest not to judge others by what I would say or do in any specific situation because these people aren't me.

Best

Joe

Speaking as a person who's typed RTFM more than once I always try to temper that advice by providing a citation or page number. I usually provide a translation too, if things are a little jargon dense.

That way they can at least be in he right section and in a position to find what they want ('cuz I have gone to the trouble to do so myself) and maybe start to see how the manual relates to the hardware.

Ironically, I've gotten crap-o-grams from people who say if I don't own a particular piece of gear I shouldn't be allowed to post answers, as if the ability to decypher the manual somehow tainted my replies.

Takes all kinds I guess.


BB

billbaker wrote:
Ironically, I've gotten crap-o-grams from people who say if I don't own a particular piece of gear I shouldn't be allowed to post answers, as if the ability to decypher the manual somehow tainted my replies.

Takes all kinds I guess.


BB

Yep, I know what you mean. People kept telling me I shouldn't be posting comments on the korg Kronos sections on how I thought they had cut corners etc, as if I needed to own one (which I now do) to say for example that they should have designed it with a slot with the SSD behind so that users can upgrade themselves (like on 99% of laptops and my PS3)

I left a couple of times as I felt this forum becoming unwelcoming and elitist, but so far, I've kept coming back.

Joe, thanks for your reply (and apologies for thanking everyone for posting -- I suppose it's habit, and nicer than "I acknowledge receipt of your message"). I don't mind at all that you disagree with my post, and I sincerely appreciate your input and perspective.

In my original post, I did address the issue of people not understanding what they see in the manual, and not understanding how things might work. I take no issue with that. Typically, those people post in their topic that they have looked in the manual but either couldn't find what they needed or they just didn't get it when they did find it. Some folks even tried for hours or days in sorting it out themselves but couldn't. These people are OK by me, and I'm not addressing them in the above rant. Further, when people say right from the start they have no idea how stuff works, that doesn't bother me either.

I also don't mind if someone doesn't thank you right away, which I also mentioned above. Sometimes it takes days or even a few weeks to go back and actually try out the advice you got. And certainly, sometimes people even forget they posted a query. But consistently failing to do so whilst making new topics with new queries is simply rubbish behaviour and a**hole-ism to very high degree, in my view.

Some topics move fast, with several replies happening in quick succession. In those cases, replies may be missed as the OP might have been posting his or her own reply simultaneously. I can recall a few times when I replied to someone with advice and they didn't see it because they were responding to an earlier response. Again, I take no issue with that; it's only a matter of directing them to the reply they missed.

I am definitely not saying that every instance of forgetfulness or what have you means that person is being a de facto a**hole. I do try to consider the individual circumstances and certainly I do not assume that everyone is a jerk. There are, however, quite a few people who consistently do not give a f**k about anyone but themselves, they consistently b*tch at those who were trying to help them, and their words and actions on the forums are intolerable, in my opinion.

Others may disagree with my views, and I'm cool with them doing that. I don't mind dissent and debate. My perspective and feelings could be wrong after all...

As for the elitism mentioned in subsequent posts, I have seen it but haven't experienced it.

I also forgot to mention those who cross-post the same question in multiple forums but do not tell anyone, which while I understand why they do it, they should at least say they've done so. It's considered good forum etiquette -- but again, perhaps I expect too much, which I know makes it my problem.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood your OP, my fault.

Yes I agree with you then.

I do understand the frustration of making the effort to reply, especially if it involves reading the manual myself or trying something out myself in order to help someone only to get either zero response, the poster never turning up again or zero acknowledgement.

It makes me feel "why do I bother"

But I bother because for every rude ignorant person out there, there are many more polite decent people, its just we tend to remember the rude ones the most.

Although in other forums having experienced what you describe, I have in the past thought what's the point.

If people on forums start wearing you down, regardless of why or who is at fault, its time to take a rest in my opinion, I have done so many times over the years and some forums which I loved, I never returned to as I was getting too worked up and depressed trying to deal with a few certain posters.

Anyway, thanks for explaining what I misunderstood.

best

Joe

man this should be pinned in every forum