Rhodes library for Kronos

[orangefunk]

After spending quite a bit of time with the EP1 modelling engine I realise that it doesn't quite live up to my expectations. A few of us die hard Rhodes players played it for an afternoon and we were in no doubt. Fine for chords but not really cutting it for jazz soloing...

Strangely enough, we preferred the SV-1 Rhodes to the EP-1 although my patches in that are more like Keith Jarretts Miles Davis period i.e quite distorted. I think the Clavia stuff is better for the Herbie sound.

Was wondering if a sampled Rhodes for the Kronos was available other than the one in the existing sample set? I know that Busch sampled a mkv for the Motif XF and was wondering if that was available for the Kronos... Surely it could be ported over?

Apologies to die hard Kronos fan boys. I am a long time Rhodes player (20 years in) so I am more finicky than most

[apex]

how much edit/tweaking did you attempt? it can get pretty dirty (if that's how you like it)

[tdwctdwc]

Obviously you didn't dive deep enough.

Call up patch A013. Set the knobs/sliders mode on the Kronos top left corner to Karma. Turn knob 7 to around 65% ( heck turn it all the way if you want) and turn knob 8 all the way to the max.

You can also experiment with the attack , bite , release etcc. Those things are easier to tweak than ever on the Kronos.

Did you even turn on the cabinets ? Did you experiment with a different phaser effect etc ? There are plenty to choose from on the ep1 main edit screen.

[1jordyzzz]

i thought that kronos EP's are more advanced than SV-1 (even though using same engine)..

[jimknopf]

orangefunk,
I am a long time Rhodes player as well, with a MK I at home, and can't quite agree, though it is true that the EP-1 engine is missing the most essential Rhodes sound of all times in it's sample base: that's a middle age MK I stage (from around 1972-74). Instead they have a) an early suitcase sound (the typical early bell 'pling' sound which is great for comping, but in the upper range too thin and with much too little dry 'bark' for proper soloing) and b) a more dry and tame MK II sound (plus a Mk V sound with again too much bell in it). But if you combine the Kronos MKI in the lower range with a MkII in the upper range and then tweak the EP settings for both, and choose an amp model (the bass amp tube models work best) in IFX, you will get much closer to a proper sound for Rhodes soloing.

It is true that the Rhodes presets on the Kronos cover only a part of the classic sound spectrum, but there is a lot of space for tweaking, and IMO the SV-1 is not at all able to come as close to the real thing as the Kronos EP-1 engine is. The only area where the SV-1 shines is the better overdrive sound: the overdrive variations on the Kronos belong to it's weakest effects (they sound harsh and digital instead of providing that warm saturated slight overdrive which we need).

Once you really tweaked your sound, you will enjoy the incredible velocity dynamics which EP-1 offers, and which come closer to the famous high dynamic range of the real Rhodes than any other emulation (hard- and software, sampled and modelled) which I know. You can really kick a Fender Twin or other tube cabinets with that one - or kill your speakers at loud settings without a limiter in the chain.

I really wished they would add a middle age MKI stage sound model to the other models. I would even pay for that, because this sound indeed is THE Rhodes sound for soloing (with enough bite and grit in the upper range), and it is really missing in EP-1.

[orangefunk]

Well, i think i've been thorough... I dug into the engine for weeks... Imho The sound is not there when you hear the individual notes.... Just like the Roland supernatural engine i fear you can tweak and tweak but get nowhere.. I messed around for ages with the vector stick and amp models in particular.. The front end thunk isn't there... Or at least is not authentic and somewhat artificial. The presets kinda confirmed my suspicions...

I agree the SV-1 is not there with the basic tone and the dynamic switching is quite poor. but with fx and wah you can go for a Jarrett sound Esp if you feed it to a rotary effect on minimal settings... and it's just so accessible and open... If somewhat limited. I like the SV-1 because of its simplicity and ergonomics...

Jim, appreciate your candour (sounds like we agree on most things to be honest) however, Imho pretty much all the Rhodes models can be made to sound the same... My 1981 Mk II sounds the same as my old early/mid 70s rhodes. Only the felt hammer version is different and that is because it really is completely different inside. The mk7 is cleaner and has a better dynamic range which I believe is a result of a different hammer throw distance.

I have 2 x Mk IIs ATM and they are set up in completely different ways. one is setup with tines so close to the pick up it distorts a little (huge dynamic range, massive bark, killer tone..). The other is a typical MkII setup one would expect from a Mk 2 and has been used on many CDs in a fusion context (not by me). The guy who owns it wants me to tech it out to sound like my Mk2 hence why I have it.

[SanderXpander]

Whether or not it's a perfect replica of a Rhodes is less important to me than how well it compares to the other alternatives out there. While I like the punch of my Nord Stage, it lacks a bunch in the finer details. I don't like the Yamaha and Roland alternatives at all.

I have a Mark I 88 from '74 and to be honest I would rather play the Kronos Rhodes in a live situation. Not just because it's lighter to carry but because even when just using the Rhodes, I can change fx and sound so much more easily. Plus it's kinda hard to make my real Rhodes sound "modern". It's been tweaked enough that it sounds pretty open and plays really well, but it will always sound like something from the 70s.

[1jordyzzz]

believe me the kronos EP-1 engine exceed roland's super hyped supernatural E-piano engine by a 1000 miles...

i love how the EP-1 engine reacts with our playing... i never played a real rhodes, maybe i never will, but those EP's on kronos is more than good..

[Kevin Nolan]

After spending quite a bit of time with the EP1 modelling engine I realise that it doesn't quite live up to my expectations. A few of us die hard Rhodes players played it for an afternoon and we were in no doubt. Fine for chords but not really cutting it for jazz soloing...

Strangely enough, we preferred the SV-1 Rhodes to the EP-1 although my patches in that are more like Keith Jarretts Miles Davis period i.e quite distorted. I think the Clavia stuff is better for the Herbie sound.

Was wondering if a sampled Rhodes for the Kronos was available other than the one in the existing sample set? I know that Busch sampled a mkv for the Motif XF and was wondering if that was available for the Kronos... Surely it could be ported over?

Apologies to die hard Kronos fan boys. I am a long time Rhodes player (20 years in) so I am more finicky than most

I was believing your post until you indicated that the Clavia stuff was better. Then I realised you are utterly frabicating where you are coming from. Could you mention details of these " Jazz die-hards you indicate tried out the Kronos".


I am not a Jazz pianist - I'm classically trained and like to improvise on my own - but I can tell you that even with my level of ability in that regard, I found the Clavia rhodes pianos to be among the very worst I have ever come across. Indeed, the same is true of their CP80 (and virtually all their pianos). Here are some of the bleeding obvious shortfalls of Clavia Pianos:

- Sample points are as obvious as from early Workstation sample days (and no surprise there - when you look ar the puney amount of RAM allocated to a typical Piano sample it can only be that way).

- They do not sample the bass end of the keyboard adequately so all of their pianos sound brutal in the bass end

- One can easily hear the velocity corssfading - rediculously easily

I have not tried the Kronos EP-1, so I cannot comment on its quality; but I am shocked to hear that multiple Jazz pianists even tolerated any Clavia piano. Clavia's look good and sound good in a live rock / pop mix where quality is actually not the requirement and all you want is a basic cliched sound to cut through a mix / live setup; but I do not see Jazz pianisats play Clavia pianos in clubs; and there are far superior offerings for sure. Even Herbie Hancock toured live with the Apple Logic Fender Rhodes virtual instrument - expounding on its excellence - so I can only imagine that the Kronos rhodes is on a par with that, if not better.

Your measure of the quality of this piano just does not stack up, and it sounds to me like you've frabicated a scenario because you want a sample library and need to support that desire with I suspect false claims that even Jazz pianists do not rate EP-1.

I'll be deligthed to stand corrected on your claim of these Jazz pianists, if the exist.

Kevin.

[SanderXpander]

Now you've gone off the other end, Kevin, in my humble opinion. I don't consider myself a typical jazz pianist compared to my direct colleagues, but my diploma does call me one, and I and many colleagues play the Nord stuff live, in jazz, pop, rock, wherever. Three years ago, I was very happy with my Nord Stage. I agree on the bass end of the grand piano sounds, it depends a lot on the setting whether or not it works. I'm really happy with the upgrade to my Kronos in that respect. But three years ago there was no Kronos, and I preferred the Clavia over the Fantom, RD series and even Motif/S90. I can definitely understand the appeal of Clavia's punch/bite in the Rhodes. It has always been one of the sounds that worked best in that board, for me, even if the Kronos trumps it by far in subtlety. And having the ability to quickly and intuitively add phaser, wah, tremolo, overdrive and delay to any preset Rhodes sound is still nicer than having to program it beforehand, like on the Kronos.

Tastes differ, I suppose.

[1jordyzzz]

I can definitely understand the appeal of Clavia's punch/bite in the Rhodes. It has always been one of the sounds that worked best in that board, for me, even if the Kronos trumps it by far in subtlety. And having the ability to quickly and intuitively add phaser, wah, tremolo, overdrive and delay to any preset Rhodes sound is still nicer than having to program it beforehand, like on the Kronos.

well, to be noted here that nord is a stage piano while kronos is a workstation... of course you have to program it first.. it's not like it's a different taste.. it's a different league..

[jimknopf]

The Clavia Rhodes was the best hardware Rhodes before the Kronos, MUCH better in it's basic tone than the standard workstation stuff from other brands. It has a tone which is really useable live, and some quite well working overdrive (better overdrive than the Kronos). Many jazz and rock keyboarders like to use it.

But it has quite a small sample base and is a bit lifeless compared to the real thing, and even compared with the Kronos.

I don't agree that you can tweak any Rhodes to sound the same: different materials, many small things not the same between the half a dozen changes over the years. Ask Rhodes maintenance gurus like Jens Lübke here in Germany: they will confirm that the differences are substantial, especially amped, while keeping a basic common sound.

I am convinced that one more EP-1 model, sample-based on the kind of Rhodes which was used for the Scarbee library (mid-age MK I Stage) would be really helpful in the Kronos EP engine to get the desired result. Add some better overdrive and you are done.

I hardly use my Mk I any more even now, despite some Kronos shortcomings, just because my patches work for what I do, and are always at my fingertips with all these wonderful stompbox variations which souind very close to the originals.

[SanderXpander]

I can definitely understand the appeal of Clavia's punch/bite in the Rhodes. It has always been one of the sounds that worked best in that board, for me, even if the Kronos trumps it by far in subtlety. And having the ability to quickly and intuitively add phaser, wah, tremolo, overdrive and delay to any preset Rhodes sound is still nicer than having to program it beforehand, like on the Kronos.

well, to be noted here that nord is a stage piano while kronos is a workstation... of course you have to program it first.. it's not like it's a different taste.. it's a different league..

True, but considering the "open" structure, it COULD have been programmed to work in a similar fashion while in EP1 mode.
I was just commenting on general usability live though. I still trade my Nord for a Kronos.

[orangefunk]

[


I was believing your post until you indicated that the Clavia stuff was better. Then I realised you are utterly frabicating where you are coming from. Could you mention details of these " Jazz die-hards you indicate tried out the Kronos".



I'll be deligthed to stand corrected on your claim of these Jazz pianists, if the exist.

Kevin.

Crikey, Kevin... why the hostility? what a horrible post....

Hmm oh well that was somewhat disappointing...

[ChadOnKeys]

I use the Kronos for all studio work and I love the sound and the way you can edit the sound so suit the song, apart from lifting the lid on an actual Rhodes and doing some tech work for every single take I think the Kronos is simply the best out there.

For live stuff I use a Nord Electro 2 running through a cheap Behringer Vamp x for amp simulation, compression, wah-wah, delay and reverb (I use Clavia’s onboard chorus and phasers) and I get loads of comments on how good my sound is from sound engineers.

While the EP-1 and the Clavia samples sound different from each other they both sound great, and whereas Rhodes enthusiasts (such as us) might find things to complain about the truth is 99% of the audience who hears my music couldn’t tell the difference between a MK II and a Casio.

But I suppose it’s a good thing that we find things to complain about, that way we force the manufacturers to keep improving their products.