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I was checking out some factory styles in style record mode, and i noticed some tracks are set to Cmaj7. I don't understand the reason for this. They could've set the track to C, right? If a Cmaj7 chord is played in style mode, the keyboard will transpose and expand the C chord to any chord anyways. Any ideas on this?

Recording Styles using Cmaj7 has been Korg's recommendation since the Korg i3.

Building your style in the maj7 key will ensure that you get authentic chords when you actually play the style.

Cheers

Pete

karmathanever wrote:Recording Styles using Cmaj7 has been Korg's recommendation since the Korg i3.

Building your style in the maj7 key will ensure that you get authentic chords when you actually play the style.

Cheers

Pete

pete, i also wondered about this. If that's the case, how come a very small percentage of factory styles actually use maj7 chords in their structure? Maybe with the newer keybaords that is not a problem anymore?

pcguy wrote:I was checking out some factory styles in style record mode, and i noticed some tracks are set to Cmaj7. I don't understand the reason for this. They could've set the track to C, right? If a Cmaj7 chord is played in style mode, the keyboard will transpose and expand the C chord to any chord anyways. Any ideas on this?

Also it is better to have one CV played some figure in maj7 and for major just lose the 7 than to make CV in major chord and then machine to guess what to play in maj7 so you need more CV. Sounds logic to me.

That's why newer keyboard use that system less, the memory isn't the problem anymore.

nikola81 wrote:

pcguy wrote:I was checking out some factory styles in style record mode, and i noticed some tracks are set to Cmaj7. I don't understand the reason for this. They could've set the track to C, right? If a Cmaj7 chord is played in style mode, the keyboard will transpose and expand the C chord to any chord anyways. Any ideas on this?

Also it is better to have one CV played some figure in maj7 and for major just lose the 7 than to make CV in major chord and then machine to guess what to play in maj7 so you need more CV. Sounds logic to me.

That's why newer keyboard use that system less, the memory isn't the problem anymore.

Nicola, i'm still not fully convinced with your answer. I've tried this myself a few times. It doesn't matter if you put the track in maj or maj7. You get exactly the same result. keyboard has no problem with transposing a maj chord track to a maj 7 chord in realtime. It scans your fingering, and if you play a maj chord, that's what you're going to get. If a maj7 chord is played, that's the sound you get. It doesn't guess anything randomly. It plays back whatever you play,and it expands (transposes) the chord to the destination chord.

My 2 cents...

I don't think maj7 is there just to get a more accurate sound. maj alone will give you a wrong sound sometimes?? No! you can make styles entirely based on maj or min chords and get a perfect sound. I don't know about i3, but this hasn't been an issue for me with PA 800.

I use maj7 or any other chord beside maj/min for multiple reasons. One obvious reason is to have different cv of course. ( Each cv would play a slightly different loop from the home key).

Sometimes, i make style out of a midi arrangement, and some of the tracks like guitars/pads..etc are using maj chords (or any other chord). Without making any further alteration, all you have to do is to choose a maj7 chord for that track and get it over with. Instead of going through the loop and delete all the maj7 notes.

Another reason for me is that sometimes when i want to start from scratch (not a song style) I improvise parts in different tracks as if i'm playing in a jazz combo or something. I end up with 5 or 6 tracks (usually around 10 or 15 minutes sessions). Then i cut it into 4 vars, and again some of the sections use lots of maj chords. That's when i use maj7 to define the key for those tracks. It makes it easier and more musical to make a style. Just my personal opinion ...

pcguy wrote:

nikola81 wrote:

pcguy wrote:I was checking out some factory styles in style record mode, and i noticed some tracks are set to Cmaj7. I don't understand the reason for this. They could've set the track to C, right? If a Cmaj7 chord is played in style mode, the keyboard will transpose and expand the C chord to any chord anyways. Any ideas on this?

Also it is better to have one CV played some figure in maj7 and for major just lose the 7 than to make CV in major chord and then machine to guess what to play in maj7 so you need more CV. Sounds logic to me.

That's why newer keyboard use that system less, the memory isn't the problem anymore.

Nicola, i'm still not fully convinced with your answer. I've tried this myself a few times. It doesn't matter if you put the track in maj or maj7. You get exactly the same result. keyboard has no problem with transposing a maj chord track to a maj 7 chord in realtime. It scans your fingering, and if you play a maj chord, that's what you're going to get. If a maj7 chord is played, that's the sound you get. It doesn't guess anything randomly. It plays back whatever you play,and it expands (transposes) the chord to the destination chord.

Ok, let me give you an example, in one of the styles i have a dist. guitar recorded in major instead maj7, so when i play Cmaj it's playing C note, but when i play Cmaj7 it plays Bb which i don't want, so i have to record that guitar to be note C in Cmaj7 chord and it will play C also in Major so i don't have to make separate cvs.

Hi
from what I gather, if you don't use a maj7th chord in recording a style track & a 7th chord is played in style play mode, the 7th has to come from somewhere. Hence your NTT Table setting.
If you've only recorded C Maj style tracks & your NTT setting is Root,
your C note when a C7 chord is played becomes a Bb , your C dissapears. you end up with Bb E G in Style Play mode

If your NTT setting is set to 5th , C E Bb , your G dissapears.

If you've recorded a cmaj7th track CEGB, NTT setting i series, the B becomes a Bb when a C7 chord is played in Style Play. CEGBb

For simple styles, you could possibly get away with creating just maj tracks, & choosing the NTT table carefully, ie do you give up the
C ( root ) or G (5th) when you play a 7th chord.

One thing I've found rather interesting, you can actually have a mix of chord & key types ( ie one track maj another track min) in the one variation cv.

Check out SwingBallad 2 Vari CV2 accomp1 CM7, accomp 2 & 3 are min7.

Can't remember being able to do this in some of my earlier keyboards.
I'd always been under the impression just say cv1 major
cv2 min. cv3 7th or maybe I've just spent too much time on EMC. HaaHaa

maj7 will enable most chords to be played accurately (it does not relate to playing maj7 chords...)

In the past when I have NOT used maj7, the style does not translate the more complex chords as well.

Just my experiences following what Korg recommends....

Cheers

Pete

When we create styles, we have two choices.

1. The easiest choice is i-Series mode: Create the style setting the Note Transposition Table, NTT = i-Series. This algorithm allows you to record 4-note chords using CM7 chords (ie C-E-G-B) and the "B" note is automatically transposed to a "Bb" at playback time if the user plays a C7 chord instead of a CM7 chord. Also in the VAR1, 2, 3 and FILL1, 2, 3 variations, if the user plays a Cm chord, then the "E" that was recorded in your style pattern is automatically transposed to an Eb.

Korg Pa2x guide page 116 wrote:To record just one Chord Variation for a Style Element, the suggested original key/chord is “maj7” (with NTT = i-Series). Be very careful to play the 7th+ note (i.e., with a “Cmaj7th” key/chord, the B), to avoid the lack of notes, or a bad NTT conversion when playing different chords. Note: To conform to Korg specifications, it is advisable to record both the “Major” and “minor” Chord Variations for the Intro 1 and Ending 1 Style Elements.

Note that for intros and endings we need to record both a "minor" version and a "major" version in the scale of C. It will be replayed exactly as recorded with a simple transposition of all notes into whatever major or minor key is recognized at the time.

2. A far more difficult option is to use any of the other NTT rules when you create the style. I don't know how the other NTT rules utilise the various CV tables since I can't find documentation explaining it. When I've played around with it I have had inconsistent results and it's consumed vast amounts of time. If anyone else knows the answer for the other NTT rules, please add your answer here ....

It's about time that Korg publishes relevant documentation regarding all aspects of using and modifying those keyboards, so that we, the users, can take full advantage of those expensive tools that we have bought! This secresy is a total lack of respect for the customers, and nothing that benefits Korg.

abo59 wrote:It's about time that Korg publishes relevant documentation regarding all aspects of using and modifying those keyboards, so that we, the users, can take full advantage of those expensive tools that we have bought! This secresy is a total lack of respect for the customers, and nothing that benefits Korg.

Hello abo59,

I hope you didn't jump to those conclusions based on my statement "I can't find documentation explaining it". Bear in mind that it might be my inability to look in the right place or comprehend what has already been written down. That's why I asked if anyone else knows the answer. I really don't think this particular aspect of the keyboard is in any way a secret and nor do I think it is suitable evidence for any conclusion about "total lack of respect for customers".

The people I have corresponded with occasionally in Korg certainly do respect and value every customer but they do not have time in the day or the money available to do all things that every user would like them to do.

That's why I kinda have the attitude "lets do things ourselves as much as possible, and only ask Korg for help when we really are stuck".

Best regards,
Rob

Rob,

LOL.. I can't deny that it was your statement that acted as the proverbial straw upon the camels back. But, it seems like there is quite a bit of information, in several areas, withheld by Korg, that if released not only would make life easier for us, but also increase the value of the keyboards.

Most other keyboards, Kurzweil, Yamaha, Roland and whatnot, has external editors and other utilities that makes life simpler. Lets be honest... the PA-series isn't the easiest of keyboards to get to grips with.

For example: give Mick whatever info he needs to finish the program he's working on.

Hi Rob,
there are a couple of diagrams in the manual that roughly shows how they transpose the notes with the different settings.

One thing for certain, you do have to have the correct key & chord type for each of the tracks.
I set a
cmaj7 chord ntt i series to
cmaj ntt i series,
it transposed some notes incorrectly in style play mode.
Probably best option may be to record tracks based on
maj7th chord with ntt iseries setting.

I get the impression that using the NTT Table setting Root or Fifth basically means that if your track is missina a particular note the root or fifth note will be used instead
ie your track is set to Key of C, Chord Major NTT Table Root ( notes in track ceg's. When you play a Maj Chord ( C ) you'll get your CEG.
Min Chord (C) CEbG
but if you play a 6 Chord ( C) AEG
7 BbEG
You only have 3 notes in the track so the root note C is replaced by an A.( C6 chord ) or Bb in (C7 Chord etc)

For instance if you recorded a track as a C6 Chord NTT Root ie notes CEGA
if you play a C Chord CEGC
C6 CEGA
C7 CEGBb
reason why the root hasn't been transposed is because you had a 4 note chord to start off ( the style track was based on C6 Chord).

Also worth noting the tensions , under style track controls. These give you your 9ths ,11ths etc
Worth checking what these do to your style also. Some add notes, some alter the root or 5th depending on your setting.

If you have a really complex track, might be worth creating a cv for it based on a particular chord type. Your playback would probably be more accurate.

If a style is with multiple CV's is playing back badly, worth checking the Style Element Chord table & that you've got the correct cv's assigned to the chord types.

I basically put together a simple style j based on cmaj, c6 , cmaj7 chords etc & tried it with the different NTT settings.
Recorded a few sequences & checked the result in edit mode.
This way I was able to check which notes were altered depending on the setting.
If I tried to do this with a normal style, it would be too confusing.



[quote="Rob Sherratt"]

Hi Rikki,

Thanks for your reply. I think that to get anyone started in creating styles we should recommend the simplest and most reliable approach which is to record accompaniments based on Cmaj7th chord C-E-G-B with ntt i-series setting. The accompaniment pattern must use all 4 of these notes somewhere in the pattern. Doesn't have to be block chords, you can use arpeggios etc. You can also add 2nds and 4th (ie D and F) in the pattern if you wish. They seem to be handled OK so long as C E G and B exist somewhere.

Best regards,
Rob