Won't Get Fooled Again organ

[stargazer520]

I am working on recreating this classic organ sound and effect on my Kross. I've got it virtually perfect except for one thing. The original sound was made by passing an organ through a sample and hold filter, as explained by Pete Townsend on a YouTube video. I don't know if he is 100% accurate on that or not. I used a square wave on the common LFO which works very well except that the square wave is too even and symmetrical. By that, I mean that the time the note is on equals the time the note is off. That's not what I hear on the original recording. The time the note is on is longer than the break between notes.

Does anyone know how to produce this desired effect, where the note on is longer than the note off to produce the correct choppy effect that you hear on the original recording? I heard that it might be possible with some sort of gate effect though I have no idea how to apply the stereo gate effect on the Kross to do this.

Thank you in advance.

[OpAmp]

Hi,

Not sure you can make it sound closer to the original, but have a look at tremolo effects.

Another method, but way more complex, is to use two square LFO, midi sync them, and set them at different phases. The phase difference between them control the note on time.

Finally, you can also try this:
* Make a custom arpeggiator pattern (1 step long, all tones on, latch off, key sync on, keyboard off)
* Choose this pattern and control the gate time (0 to 100%) of the arpegiator. Note that the arpeggiator really retriggers the notes.

Have fun

[stargazer520]

Thank you for those great suggestions. I never would have considered any of them. I'm honestly unclear how I could use the tremolo effects to achieve my outcome.

As I thought through the LFO suggestion, something came to mind. I'm using the Commono LFO 1 for this square wave choppy effect, since I believe it's the only way to apply the effect across the entire patch and have it NOT "restart" the wave pattern upon every note trigger. I also read on a different forum that this was the only way to do this. Do do what you suggest and essentially double the effect and adjust the phase off the second one would mean I'd have to use Common LFO 2. Unfortunately, I'm using Common LFO 2 for the filter sweeping effect, since again, I don't want the sweep to "restart" upon every note trigger. Is there a way to use LFO 1 or 2 and not have the oscillator start over upon every note trigger?

Some other questions come to mind as I listen to how this actually sounds in its current state. As I understand filter "depth" on some other synths, the depth can be set in either the positive (open) or negative (closed) state. The frequency is set on one screen, and the depth coulld be set to only open from this set frequency. The LFO would start and end at the set frequency, and only open (if set to "positive"), then close down to the set frequency. It appears that the Kross doesn't have this option of "positive" and "negative". The depth (called "intensity" on the Kross) acts as a "range" equally positive and negative from the set frequency. That's the behavior I'm experiencing. I have the frequency set to 60 and the intensity set to 10, and that's the closest I can get to my desired filter sweep effect. But, it's sweeping above and below my set point of 60. What I want it to do is have the sweep only open positively from my set frequency point and then close back down to that point. Can this be done?

Another odd behavior I'm hoping there's a fix for is that along with the sweep clearly closing below my set point, I noticed that the amount of sweep (intensity? depth/range of oscillation?) changes up and down the keyboard. For example, the sweep intensity is greater higher up the keyboard, so the higher notes actually close the filter down so much that it virtually closes completely before opening again. I know this shouldn't be. It's behaving like "key tracking" is on somewhere but I have confirmed it is off (everywhere I looked).

Can someone provide further assistance?

[OpAmp]

Hi,

A quick answer on the filter depth thing.
The intensity parameter in the Kross is like a gain for the chosen AMS source.

Typically an LFO has a waveform which varies from positive to negative values and back. That makes that the modulation of the filter is going around your set frequency.
Now have a look again at the LFO used for modulation. There is an offset parameter. By turning this completely up or down, you can make sure that the LFO shifts it waveform completely up or down vs the 0 (volt), allowing to output either only positive or only negative values. By this, one of the extremes of the LFO waveform is 0, and thus the modulation will start/end from the set point.

For your other remarks/question, I might come back later.

Have fun

[OpAmp]

Hi,

Concerning the key tracking effect on the filter. What happens if you disable the sweeping of the LFO? Do you also get the feeling that higher notes are already cut off?

Note that if a LP filter is used which is not key tracked, it filters higher notes much more. Applying there modulation may indeed further filter down the notes.
Maybe you can try to use AMS mixer to key track the amplitude of the LFO before applying it to the filter?

Have fun.

[stargazer520]

Thank you, OpAmp for taking the time to explain a few things. I'm back from vacation and have been playing with this patch and after following your advice on some points, as best as I could, I'm liking this more than ever! I've got the phasing effect down using LFO2 with KeySync unchecked (makes the phasing NOT start over with each key press). Now I'm trying to get the choppy effect adjusted. I understand your suggestion of using two square LFOs out of phase to produce the effect of a longer "on" and shorter "off", but I don't see how I can do that. I am under the impression that I have to use the Common LFO with a square wave to accomplish this choppy effect. There is only one Common LFO so I can't double the square wave and set one out of phase. Perhaps I'm looking at this all wrong.

What if I start over and do the following:
1. Use LFO1 and LFO2 for the choppy effect, setting them both to square and one out of phase. Both also with KeySync unchecked so the pattern doesn't start over with every key press. Would that essentially mimic using the Common LFO?
2. Use the Common LFO for the phasing effect.

The end result needs to be that both the choppy effect and the phasing effect run independent of key presses. Neither should start over when a key is pressed.

Thoughts?

P.S. I didn't try the arpeggiator as I'm not familiar enough with it, though I could try it if all else fails.

[stargazer520]

UPDATE: I did try using LFO1 and LFO2, both set up as square waves, both MIDI Synced and offsetting the phase of LFO2. I end up with a stranger effect. I think the issue is that offsetting the phase of one in order to effectively lengthen the "note on" also lengthens the "note off" for that LFO, which produces a sort of syncopated effect. Also, when they are MIDI Synced, it appears I only have the "Base Note" values to set the speed or frequency of the choppy effect, whereas when they are not MIDI Synced, I am presented with an actual "Frequency" value to dial in. The Base Note values are either too slow or too fast. I can't set anything in between the Base Note values.

I'm starting to lose hope.

[OpAmp]

Hi,

Ok, the LFO way was not my best proposal. I also did not have the time then to try it out at my side.

I just sat in front of my Kross and came up with a better idea! Here it goes. The idea is to use an AMS mixer to convert a saw LFO in pwm LFO.

p-amp - mod page: choose AMS Mixer 1 as modulation source with an intensity of -99.
p-cmn lfo/kt- lfo.w page: choose a saw waveform and set all other parameters to 0.
p-cmn lfo/kt- lfo.f page: choose the frequency here or MIDI sync mode (as you whish)

p-ams mixer - 1 pages: choose type: gate control, source for gate control: common LFO, choose for below: fixed -99, choose for at and above fixed +99.
The threshold on this page determines the pulse width: +99 will result in 100% on (as no modulation), 0 as 50% on and -99 as 0% on (no sound). Near -99% it works not perfectly, the rythm is not followed steadily. (It is a kind of aliasing effect)

You may need to set it up for both oscillators if your program is a double one.

This is the best you can do on the Kross and I think it should be pretty close to what you are looking for.

Good luck!

[Dan Stesco]

UPDATE: I did try using LFO1 and LFO2, both set up as square waves, both MIDI Synced and offsetting the phase of LFO2. I end up with a stranger effect. I think the issue is that offsetting the phase of one in order to effectively lengthen the "note on" also lengthens the "note off" for that LFO, which produces a sort of syncopated effect. Also, when they are MIDI Synced, it appears I only have the "Base Note" values to set the speed or frequency of the choppy effect, whereas when they are not MIDI Synced, I am presented with an actual "Frequency" value to dial in. The Base Note values are either too slow or too fast. I can't set anything in between the Base Note values.

I'm starting to lose hope.

Will do it myself as soon as possible and will share with you.

[stargazer520]

I just got some time to get back to this and I followed the suggestions for the AMS Mixer control. It actually sounds close to perfect! And it's adjustable!!! Thank you so much for your help with this. I'll be coming back again for more expert programming advice.

[stargazer520]

I have a follow-up question about this patch. I'm having difficulty making the filter sweep on the LFO2 "close" and "open" wide enough. The sweeping effect is too narrow and all of the adjusting I do doesn't seem to work. The Frequency and Intensity settings appear to be almost "fighting" each other. I'd like the "open" end of the sweep to be brighter. Perhaps that's a limitation of the brightness of the sample itself, but without the LFO applied, I seem to be able to get a brighter sound. I'd also like the "closed" end of the sweep to be more muted.

Is there any way I could upload the patch so someone can check my settings? Perhaps I could send it via private message or e-mail.

I would GREATLY appreciate it!

jeff

[marques04]

I quickly read your post and the replies and didn't see anyone talking about using any kind of random LFO wave (sample and hold or random, whatever be the name of the korg waves).
Because if Pete Towshend said "Sample and Hold", he is talking about random LFO applied to the filter, not a square wave. I heard the organ and the effect (not the sound, but the random effect on filter cutoff) is similar to the robotic sound that you can hear at the introduction of Rush's The Camera Eye (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atdNxWnrbNo).
have you tried a random LFO wave applied to the filter?

I am working on recreating this classic organ sound and effect on my Kross. I've got it virtually perfect except for one thing. The original sound was made by passing an organ through a sample and hold filter, as explained by Pete Townsend on a YouTube video. I don't know if he is 100% accurate on that or not. I used a square wave on the common LFO which works very well except that the square wave is too even and symmetrical. By that, I mean that the time the note is on equals the time the note is off. That's not what I hear on the original recording. The time the note is on is longer than the break between notes.

Does anyone know how to produce this desired effect, where the note on is longer than the note off to produce the correct choppy effect that you hear on the original recording? I heard that it might be possible with some sort of gate effect though I have no idea how to apply the stereo gate effect on the Kross to do this.

Thank you in advance.

[Scott]

If you're playing it with a band, I think it's best just to play each hit. You still have to program in the filter sweep or whatever for the timbral change, but unless you're going to have the drummer play to a click, it's better if you follow the drummer for tempo rather than forcing the drummer to follow you.