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Guys, I don't mind learning my gear, and I'll even venture that I do a LOT more custom programs than most people. I'm very comfortable around the Korg OS in general. I didn't dive into Karma very much yet, even though I own the original Karma workstation and the Karma MW software (which I got when it just got out and it was pretty buggy for me then).

All I'm saying is that from my experience, it turns a lot of people off that creating the simplest kinds of arps takes a lot more work than it should. With all due respect, but just because Karma is there doesn't mean that everyone will want to use it. It's possible to love the Kronos for all its possibilities and engines without wanting to use Karma very much at all. Pretty much every workstation and synth has a simple way to set up an arp. I don't want the Kronos to be as limited as they are, it's great that Karma can do so much more. But the standard arps are a staple of the synth world. It's just dumb to say that it's fine it's so much more complicated and involved to create on Karma. Karma is great and brings me inspiration and happy accidents, but its starting points could use some work. Even Stephen said that perhaps making the standard up/down arp pattern pan by default was a mistake. And to be honest, I do think it was. People don't expect it and it leaves the first time user struggling to comprehend a lot more of Karma than should be necessary for a first go at a simple arp. Not to crap on his otherwise amazing product.

SanderXpander wrote:All I'm saying is that from my experience, it turns a lot of people off that creating the simplest kinds of arps takes a lot more work than it should.

yes a couple of people in this thread are saying that, but is this really true? You need to do 2 steps to get a 4 octave arpeggiator, that's really not much, almost any musician should be capable of remembering those two steps i think.

the two steps are:
- initialize KARMA module
- select KARMA GE003 Arp up (or any other arp type you want)

If you don't modify a sound but create your own sound then you can skip step 1. In that case you only have to select the KARMA GE003

Now, i simply can't believe that there are a lot of people that can't do this.


Then the second question most people have is to get rid of the panning. This requires one step!

- on the KARMA filter tab you have to disable CC-A
Which means that you filter out the Control changes for panning.

The the last question is how to lower the note range from 4 to 1 octave. On most synths this is a dial or a button, but on the Kronos it is a fader. So the only thing you have to do is lower the fader with number 5 below it to influence the note range.

Now really, how hard can that be?

To be honest i don't believe this is an issue at all, sure there are a couple of guys that are used to software and having trouble working with hardware, but that is the minority. In my opinion almost any musician is capable of doing the above steps.

By the way I like your idea of having presets for common arpeggiator patterns (just the way the FX system is having presets).

Anything is simple once you know how to do it. I have no trouble "remembering" those steps, my point is I believe people wouldn't feel so frustrated at their first experience if Karma's initial behaviour was a little more like something they already know. It's a matter of default settings more than anything else. What do you think most programmers are looking for when they select the arp up GE003? It's not that it can't do what you want after making three or four more settings that you have to know. It's that it should give the most commonly expected result from the start. For every guy posting his initial frustration here there's a hundred giving up because they think it's too complicated. And that's a shame.

Qrobinez,

Now that I watched your tutorial, I remember watching a brief part in the past. Your tutorial's description is "How to program your first KARMA GE Arpeggiator for Trance Music for absolute beginners".

Sorry to say, but I stay away from trance music as far as possible, and when I heard the thing you were making in the video it stopped being interesting for me...

The last time I used an arpeggiator, it was on a Roland Juno 8, it had 4 physical controls:
- on/off button
- mode (3 or 4 types, I believe)
- range
- speed

I could've created the effect that I want in seconds. No tutorials, no manual, ...

Having to dive into KARMA being used to a basic ARP, is really frustrating. I can't seem to find an easy way to let it repeat the note you're pressing. It always takes a note from a different octave! Argh - annoying!

mathieumaes wrote:Qrobinez,

Now that I watched your tutorial, I remember watching a brief part in the past. Your tutorial's description is "How to program your first KARMA GE Arpeggiator for Trance Music for absolute beginners".

Sorry to say, but I stay away from trance music as far as possible, and when I heard the thing you were making in the video it stopped being interesting for me...

The last time I used an arpeggiator, it was on a Roland Juno 8, it had 4 physical controls:
- on/off button
- mode (3 or 4 types, I believe)
- range
- speed

I could've created the effect that I want in seconds. No tutorials, no manual, ...

Having to dive into KARMA being used to a basic ARP, is really frustrating. I can't seem to find an easy way to let it repeat the note you're pressing. It always takes a note from a different octave! Argh - annoying!

No problem, mathieumaes,
i can understand that a lot of people hate trance music. However, if you watched a little bit further you would have known by now how to limit the note range because the standard controls were explained in the first couple of minutes. You could have left the video when the note repetition was explained which is commonly used in trance music, but the first minutes shows the standard controls.

but i will save you the trouble watching the video
- select your basic arp pattern
- press the RTC Control / KARMA button left of the faders
- LOWER FADER 5 to the bottom position.
- Done

(not that hard to do i think)
That's all you have to do

qrobinez,

First of all, I forgot to mention I appreciate your time and effort on replying to my stupid questions

Even if I set the the note range, the sounding note is still 1 octave too high. In fact, it's always that same note (I believe it's B3), even when I press B2 or B6...

I believe I can rest my case.

mathieumaes wrote:qrobinez,

First of all, I forgot to mention I appreciate your time and effort on replying to my stupid questions

Even if I set the the note range, the sounding note is still 1 octave too high. In fact, it's always that same note (I believe it's B3), even when I press B2 or B6...

i've answered your same question in a different thread but for reference purposes and knowledge sharing for people that are interested in the anwer here it is:

that's because you modified an existing program or combi that was programmed by somebody else. The original programmer of that program or combi decided that the arp should play in that octave.

It's better to initialize the karma module before selecting new GE's if you don't have a clue how to solve this. Then the default settings are restored and all the tweaks from the original sounddesigner are gone.

Now if you want to solve this without the initialize feature then you need to know a little about the KARMA module. You can change this by pressing the KARMA tab and then the CONTROL Subtab. There you see a section called FORCE RANGE, my guess is that it's now on the setting C3 - B3.

Set that setting to off and you will have the full range again.

So bottomline is: When changing karma modules that are programmed by others you will get unexpected results because you don't know the intentions of the original programmer. So you have two choices: Initialize the KARMA module or learn how the KARMA modules work.

It's up to you....

I have a question - what is a Juno 8? :p

Qui, I have to give you credit for your patience and dedication to the platform. I really hope you help people overcome their initial hurdles with Karma. Perhaps you should be on Korg's or Karmalab's payroll.

qrobinez wrote:So bottomline is: When changing karma modules that are programmed by others you will get unexpected results because you don't know the intentions of the original programmer. So you have two choices: Initialize the KARMA module or learn how the KARMA modules work.

It's up to you....

Thanks, Q - Yes, that is absolutely correct and good advice.

It would not matter how "stupidly simple" an arp is, if you are modifying it inside a combi or program where a programmer has already set up parameters to cause specific behaviors, then you may get confusing results, and this is not the fault of KARMA. If you want predictable behavior that is not modified by settings already in place, initialize the KARMA Module first.

This would be like taking a motion-synth filter-sweeping LFO bending AL-1 program, and attempting to get a straight, simple saw wave out of it. Think of all the stuff you would have to modify and remove in order to get it back to a static saw wave. Think of all the "where is that coming from?" questions you would be asking. How much easier to start with an inited AL-1 program? It's the same situation for KARMA.

SanderXpander wrote:I believe I can rest my case.

I don't believe you can. See my previous answer about Q's advice.

SanderXpander wrote:Anything is simple once you know how to do it. I have no trouble "remembering" those steps, my point is I believe people wouldn't feel so frustrated at their first experience if Karma's initial behaviour was a little more like something they already know. It's a matter of default settings more than anything else. What do you think most programmers are looking for when they select the arp up GE003? It's not that it can't do what you want after making three or four more settings that you have to know. It's that it should give the most commonly expected result from the start. For every guy posting his initial frustration here there's a hundred giving up because they think it's too complicated. And that's a shame.

Honestly, what is it that *you* expect GE003 Arp Model 01 Up to do?

I can agree here that these arps probably shouldn't have panning turned on by default. I agree that's annoying. Too late now to do anything about that. But let's skip that, or overlook it for the moment.

Other than that, what do you expect it to do? You select it, and you've immediately got an upwards arpeggio that simply arpeggiates the notes that you are holding. You can adjust the octave range with a slider. Why is that a big deal? Any arp you select in some other synth is going to require you to set a parameter for the number of octaves. It seems rather stupid to me to have presets like "1 octave up arp, 2 octave up arp, 3 octave up arp, 4 octave up arp" when all you have to do is move one slider to vary the range of the arp.

What do you think most programmers are looking for when they select the arp up GE003?

What makes you think everyone has the same idea in mind for "upwards arpeggio."? And again, I ask: what is GE003 not doing that it should, from your expectation?

Those first 20 or 30 GEs with the name "Arp Model" were created to do simple arpeggiator patterns and tasks. Sorry about the panning, but to me, that's really the only problem. If you want a Juno 8 arpeggiator, get a Juno 8. Otherwise, in the Kronos, you're going to have to learn what a few sliders and buttons do. GE000 Arp Model 01 Up/Down, other than the panning, does exactly what it says - goes up and down, with a default 4 octave range. If the range is too wide for you, you have to move one slider - real-time control. Like most classic arpeggiators, there's a control for the duration of the notes (gate time). I really don't get what else is wrong with that.

Think of the complexity of any of the synth engines in the Kronos (with maybe the exception of the PolySix.) You can't expect to jump into one of those and immediately master it. There's no "simple beginner interface" for it.

I've been following this topic with interest - as just over a week ago, with some time on my hands - I decided to dust off my 2004 XP laptop (which hasn't been used for two years but has my Karma Oasys software on it) and finally learn how to use Karma and the software. [Unfortunately my current laptop uses Lion!]

A week later and I have great sympathy for many of the arguments presented here. On the one hand I did find myself mimicking Kevin Nolans thoughts - I've an engineering degree from Cambridge and was struggling at times to understand parts of the system. However, I did persevere and do believe that complicated subjects needs great study and that in doing so provide the tools for yielding the most customised and interesting results. I'd rather a system had greater complexity for exploration than less.
Stephen was also very helpful in answering some of my questions on the system and why it was functioning in a particular fashion.

I have come to the conclusion that Karma is a fantastic system - but is one that perhaps lets itself down / would benefit from more accessible easy user interface for dragging people gradually into its complexities. I think the best systems in today's age are the ones which have fantastic power under the hood but make it easy for the user to do basic things easily. Was it omnisphere that had an easy edit page at the front along similar lines - there's plenty of examples all over the software / hardware worlds that do this (Apple arguably have remade their fortunes on similar principles). Wouldn't karma be much more accessible to all if it had an easy arps page which effectively took in a bunch of simple arp parameters and then trasnslated them into karma settings. [However there seems to be a limit from Korg of how many pages actually go on the workstation (otherwise you'd have all the grids/etc which Stephen originally wanted on the workstation rather than just in the software program) and I'm sure the more advanced users (and myself now) would rather have extra pages on the workstation be dedicated to these grids, rather than a more basic pages (if it were only an either or choice).]

The arps on the system are a particular case in point on ease of use. I also own a Virus and there is something intuitive and easy to holding a chord and then cycling through the various arps - so I sympathise with those wishing to do this easily on the Kronos. It's certainly possible to get similar arps and then modify them in ways that most synths will never be able to do - but it definitely could be easier to circle through some great presets.

For those of you interested in this type of arp generation, the closest I have come to this experience is actually following a tutorial around GE 220.
Do the following:
1) Select a sound you like (I'm using A-055 MOD 7 E.Piano Pad SW1)
2) Change the GE to 220: Trance Riff 3 (using the Karma GE page). [IMPORTANT - on the menu where you select the GE, touch the number 220 TWICE - if you only press it once there is a bug whereby it sounds ok but the GE RTP aren't brought in correctly - see separate thread]
3) Turn Karma on and Play a note / chord
This is pretty nice on its own and apparently mirrors one of the old Triton arps - and you can play with the sliders to alter it a bit - although to my ear the duration one is the more useful on to experience with.

[An aside - If you want to reset these settings to the original then use 'Reset Controls' and the 'Scene' button / or reselect the GE (twice). If you use the reset controls with the karma switch it resets all the sliders/switches settings to those of the original GE (although still keeping GE220) so it now sounds totally different. IMO this is a bug and reset controls with karma should reinstall the settings of the GE which is selected.]

Although nice on its own - it can also be extensively modified - in hundreds of ways but I'll give you a couple of key ones.
A) You can change the riff. A couple of different riffs are given in GEs 218 & 219: Trance Riffs 1&2 (remember to select each one twice in the GE menu).
If you have the software you could directly create your own riff using the CC pattern - but you can't create your own riff with only the Kronos.

B) You can play with the templates to bring up more Triton arp emulations. This is where you need to make sure you selected the GE twice else sometimes the right GE RTPs aren't brought in correctly.
4) Select 'Common' - then 'Karma' - then 'GE RTP Scenes' from the menus at the bottom of the page.
5) At the top of page make sure you select checkbox for '17-32'. Look for 'Look for line 20: Cluster Template + Restore [1] (in GE 218 this is on line 21) and change the value to 48 rather than 47 - this gives you a different triton arp - and so on as you change this value between 1 and 64.
6) If you want you can then hook this up to a slider instead by using the assign arrow (e.g. slider 8 although you should prob disable slider 8 from its current function on the '1-16' page.)
For those interested a much fuller explanation including the mechanics behind all of this is here: http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthre ... torial+220

However this example raises as many questions as it answers.
- this type of thing is exactly what new owners IMO want to get to easily. I think it was a mistake to have to make new owners start playing around with GE RTP / hooking them up to sliders in order to do this. It would have been much better if this setting was already hooked up on say slider 7. I understand that this doesn't fit in the RTC model but then wouldn't it have been better to have another RTC model that was good at demonstrating different arps as this is such a commonly requested feature.
- And IMO it would have been much better to have a set of CC templates with different riffs set up - say on slider 8 that changed the riff easily.
Then all Korg/Stephen would have to do would be to say go to GE 220 and play around with sliders 7, 8 and 4 (for duration) and you've got an arpeggiator all set up in one GE to rival that of most current keyboards with lots of funky rifs / arpeggiated patterns all modifiable in real time (without having to select different GEs).

Anyway, I can testify that it is possible to learn how to use the system (although I still have some outstanding questions!). It does take some time but is immensely powerful and so is worth the effort. There is an analogy with the sound engines as it also takes time to learn how to use one of these. You don't have to and there's plenty of presets for those who don't - but that's exactly the same with Karma as there's hundreds of great presets. And like with the sound engines, you are much more able to sculpt a sound exactly as you want once you understand the engine.

For those watching from Korg. It would be great if the couple of bugs could be ironed out quickly. I'd also love to see the pattern grids/etc on the workstation (it was a mistake IMO not to have them there) but I'm not holding my breath.

Cheers, Domc

StephenKay wrote:Honestly, what is it that *you* expect GE003 Arp Model 01 Up to do?

I can agree here that these arps probably shouldn't have panning turned on by default. I agree that's annoying. Too late now to do anything about that. But let's skip that, or overlook it for the moment.

Other than that, what do you expect it to do? You select it, and you've immediately got an upwards arpeggio that simply arpeggiates the notes that you are holding. You can adjust the octave range with a slider. Why is that a big deal? Any arp you select in some other synth is going to require you to set a parameter for the number of octaves. It seems rather stupid to me to have presets like "1 octave up arp, 2 octave up arp, 3 octave up arp, 4 octave up arp" when all you have to do is move one slider to vary the range of the arp.

I expect it to do exactly that - arp up the notes of the chord I'm holding. I'm not in front of my Kronos atm, and I think my mistake has probably also been not initializing the Karma module, or brushing a slider when I shouldn't have. I remember not only the panning but also the arp spanning multiple octaves and gradually shifting upwards.
So at least half of my confusion was user error, most likely. Honestly, Stephen, I think your software is great and your presence on the forums is laudable. I'm not really trying to put the software at fault and I don't have all the answers - I'm not a designer or software engineer. I'm just trying to think of a way to make Karma more accessible to the casual user. I don't think you can deny that many people get quickly frustrated and give up (even though there are also many that persevere and come to exult on your forums). It's easy to say those people are lazy, and to an extent you'd be right. But I think it should be possible to capture those casual users too if the approach was a little different. For an analogy; Nokia and Blackberry had been doing email and internet on mobile phones for years, but look how many more people started doing it when the iPhone was first released. (Yes, the iPhone has many faults too, let's please not make it about that.)

I guess from the in-depth programming point of view, it's more useful to leave parameters in place when you switch GE patterns, than to initialize them by default? I can see why that would make sense.

SanderXpander wrote:I guess from the in-depth programming point of view, it's more useful to leave parameters in place when you switch GE patterns, than to initialize them by default? I can see why that would make sense.

i agree, it does makes sense, if you initialize a KARMA module by default when you change the GE, then all your work you did before as a sound designer would have been lost.

To simplify things you could look at the KARMA system in a different way:
The KARMA system consists of 2 parts:
- The Pattern (Called a GE) which can be anything ranging from notes to CC information
- The KARMA programming environment (which determines how the selected KARMA GE outputs his patterns or how it reacts on the user actions)

Now this is were most people that have problems with the KARMA Arpeggiators make a mistake. The modify an existing program which has a custom Programming environment which was created by the original sounddesigner. Now when you only change the Pattern, then the complete programming environment is doing it's tricks on the new Pattern.

My opinion is that you want it this way, because it gives you the possibility to audition different Patterns with the modifications in place from the programming environment.

Now as said before, when you initialize the KARMA module then the KARMA Programming environment is reset to default and you will have the standard behaviour you expect based on the name of the KARMA GE.


But i still think that a KARMA preset mechanisme would be a great addon for the KARMA system if it was implemented the same way as in the FX system. That KARMA Preset system would have to fill in the settings for the KARMA GE and the KARMA Programming environment.

So you could have presets like:
- Basic Arp UP
- Basic Arp Down
- Basic Arp Up / Down
- Groovy Pattern 16th
- Triplet Pattern 8ths
- Techno Pattern 1
- Rock Pattern 1
- Drum groove (funk)

I know that you can find these kind of descriptions in the KARMA Ge categories, but that's not the same. These new type of presets would also program the KARMA programming environment, so you would have the best of two worlds.

That way sounddesigners (from korg / karma-lab / or users from forums) could create custom presets for everyone to use.

You can do this already as i explained in my tutorial 08 copying KARMA pattern. But not everyone imediately sees the incredible possibilities of these kind of features.

Technically this shouldn't be that hard to implement for stephen or Korg, all the functionality is already in place, the only thing you have to be able to do is to store all the Copied KARMA settings in a custom preset with a custom name. And when you select that one from a preset dropdownlist in the KARMA Module page than the copied values from that preset are pasted to the current KARMA module (just the same as when you copied a KARMA module from a different program).

I really hope stephen or Korg will consider this, I'm convinced that this will be a great expansion for a lot of users that don't want to learn the KARMA system, but just want to browse arpeggiator / pattern presets.

The last two posts mirror exactly, why I was and am still opting for a more simple Arp mode, while not being able to name the exact reasons which make me feel that something is constantly disturbing me, when I try to do what is so easily achieved on my Access Virus:
- scrolling through types of arps with a chord pressed, without masses of unwelcome parameters coming in my way all the time.

In fact in these cases I DON'T want ALL of KARMA, only a useful arp subset, and a fast way of scrolling through arp presets, like I can do it on my Access TI.
The simple difference is, that on the TI I get musical results and creative ideas without any trouble, in a very fast and straightforward way.

So I think that you, Stephen, just should ignore the agressive and idiotic thread title, and rather consider pure usability demands. I for one am certainly not lacking respect for you and your work, and still would like to have better access (no pun intended) to more straightforward arp use.