Will the New Fantom Motivate Korg ?

[GregC]

I don't think the Fantom is aimed at coverband keyboarders who need bread-and-butter sounds and sample capabilities.

The Fantom has its focus on synthesizer performances and DAW integration.

When I see demos like this I think that is the strong point of the Fantom:

I think you're correct about those Fantom strengths, but I think the Fantom could also function nicely as a coverband board with (pad-based) samples. The bread and butter sounds are still there, with great performance real-time control abilities and seamless transitions and touchscreen patch selection. Also dedicated synth knobs to make it easy to create/tweak the synth sounds you need. For cover band use, those real-time performance controls (pads, endless encoders) and dedicated synth knobs are even advantages over Kronos.

Sure, if the cover material and your band gives you the space to fully initialize
what the Fantom offers.

I take it, you are good at improvising. That would seem to be a necessary skill to take advantage of the Fantom's on board controls.

I probably have brain lock, but if I was in a Foreigner or Journey cover band, it seems like a $4000 Fantom would not be my first choice of an everything gigging keyboard.

I am not talking weight and size and all those individual variables, cover band keyboard players talk about.

I am referring to actual real time use of Fantom on stage in a cover band.

If you can, give me 3 vivid examples where Fantom and the keyboard player would light up the cover song. Not merely replicate the original recording.

Thanks !

[Scott]

All in all, although I like the classical Roland synth sound character, and might be tempted facing an attractive price, I would feel like an idiot, to pay around double the price I could regard as acceptable (maybe 2000 bucks as maximum) for something like that.

$2k doesn't even buy you a far less capable RD-2000.

I haven't really seen people complain about the price of the RD-2000. Certainly all the other features of the Fantom are worth a decent premium over that, yes? (Aftertouch, touchscreen, dedicated synth controls, DAW functions, sample pads, sequencer...)

[Koekepan]

All in all, although I like the classical Roland synth sound character, and might be tempted facing an attractive price, I would feel like an idiot, to pay around double the price I could regard as acceptable (maybe 2000 bucks as maximum) for something like that.

$2k doesn't even buy you a far less capable RD-2000.

I haven't really seen people complain about the price of the RD-2000. Certainly all the other features of the Fantom are worth a decent premium over that, yes? (Aftertouch, touchscreen, dedicated synth controls, DAW functions, sample pads, sequencer...)

What's the value proposition compared to the competition? What does Kurzweil offer for less? Or KORG? Or Akai Professional, for that matter?

US prices quoted for the new Fantom don't go under $3K. For that money I can buy a Kronos, or an MPC X along with (if I felt the need) one of Akai's controller keyboards. The Fantom's top end price (88 keys) is more than any Kronos that I remember seeing on the market, and would leave you room for a few forties along with your MPC X and controller.

If it's the Roland sound you want, you could buy a Casio MZX500, an Integra 7, and still have cash left for a brace of boutiques.

By that standard, the new Fantom is not a good buy.

[Scott]

I take it, you are good at improvising. That would seem to be a necessary skill to take advantage of the Fantom's on board controls.

I probably have brain lock, but if I was in a Foreigner or Journey cover band, it seems like a $4000 Fantom would not be my first choice of an everything gigging keyboard.
...
If you can, give me 3 vivid examples where Fantom and the keyboard player would light up the cover song. Not merely replicate the original recording.

It really doesn't matter whether you're improving or replicating (or for that matter, whether it's a general cover band as I mentioned, or more of a tribute band as you're talking about, or an original band). Regardless, there is an advantage to lots of knobs with dedicated functions. Look how popular the Nord Stage is for cover bands. Whether for setting up sounds in advance of the gig, or for manipulating the sounds during the gig, this approach provides a quick and easy way to work. (And Nord Stage 3 is even pricier than Fantom.)

NS3 and Fantom share the feature of dedicated synth knobs. Nord had an additional benefit in other dedicated knobs, whereas Fantom has its own additional benefit in that all its endless encoders with LED rings allow you to easily see your settings on recalled presets and have the knobs immediately do exactly what you want when you move them (i.e. they are always in the "right" place). I like the Nord a lot, but if the Fantom were lighter and had at least a "good enough" organ sound (we'll see), I'd choose the Fantom, personally.

As it is, I gig with my Nord more than my Kronos, in part because of weight, and in part because of the control surface. For me, I use Kronos live only as a recallable preset machine (i.e. calling up sounds from the Set List, which is great). I think the control surface of the Kronos is awful. Mostly unlabeled and undifferentiated black controls (often butted up right against each other) on a black background (and none of which indicate current values, which is also a Nord weakness, which the Roland won't have). It's a board whose panel I just don't enjoy interacting with, either at gig, or in advance for setup. But of course, it also has its own advantages, like that great Set List screen (some of that functionality will also be in the Roland), and great support for additional and custom samples (though the interface for dealing with that stuff is a bit daunting), and of course some really strong sounds (I don't think the Fantom will compete with its EP, CX3, and FM engines).

If I were buying for cover band use today, I'd take the Fantom over the Kronos... because the things the Kronos does better can mostly be added to a Fantom by plugging it into an iPad or Microsoft Surface (both of which I happen to own), whereas the things the Fantom does better (operational ergonomics) can't be added to a Kronos at all. The reason I'm not buying a Fantom is that I already have the Kronos, and rarely gig with it, as I said, partly because of weight. So getting another board that is too heavy for me to want to gig with doesn't make sense.

[Devnor]

I probably have brain lock, but if I was in a Foreigner or Journey cover band, it seems like a $4000 Fantom would not be my first choice of an everything gigging keyboard.

I don't see why not. The players in those bands use Roland gear exclusively.

Fantom G was 10 years ago. There's a new crew in place and I think it shows in this new design. Obviously Fantom has some development ahead but that's no different than anything else. I've owned Jupiter 80 for 7 years. Roland delivered on all their promises for the machine. I'm not that worried about the Fantom future.

I don't look at these things in a vacuum. Synth doesn't have to do everything under the sun but it needs to do some things well. We all have tons of gear, more sounds & capabilities than I could have ever dreamed when I bought my DX7 new. With a few choice combinations you can have the best of best and work exactly the way you want to do work.

[GregC]

[

eek ! Duplicate post

Thanks !

[Scott]

If it's the Roland sound you want, you could buy a Casio MZX500, an Integra 7, and still have cash left for a brace of boutiques.

By that standard, the new Fantom is not a good buy.

For me, it's not so much the sounds, it's about the operational ergonomics. If there were a "Fantom Controller" that had no sounds at all , I think that alone would be worth quite a bit more than the $1k-ish 88-key controllers from Arturia, Studiologic, or Native Instruments. I could see such a product sold as a $2k Logic/Mainstage controller. The other "high value" part of it that you don't get in an Integra is the V-Piano.

As an aside, MZX500 is a cool board, but would not make for a good Integra controller. You'd want something that could selectively transmit on any combination of the 16 MIDI channels, including split/layer of those transmissions, and definable program changes. The cheapest board that could do that is probably Korg Kross. (Of course, that still doesn't get you the aftertouch, touchscreen, dedicated synth controls, etc.).

[GregC]

I probably have brain lock, but if I was in a Foreigner or Journey cover band, it seems like a $4000 Fantom would not be my first choice of an everything gigging keyboard.

I don't see why not. The players in those bands use Roland gear exclusively.

. With a few choice combinations you can have the best of best and work exactly the way you want to do work.

I didn't suggest ' it can't be done ' with Fantom. I made the point you don't need a $4000 Fantom to perform " Don't Stop Believing " or "Urgent".

I have no problem with a keyboardist wanting the very best keyboard on the market, lets say its the $4000 Fantom, to play the above covers and others from the 70's/80's.

It seems like a ton of $$ to spend, when a much less expensive rig will easily do the job.

So I am thinking in a practical sense. If I am doing covers and have week end gigs, I am not thinking about showing off the $4000 Fantom.

To each his/her own. I would use Fantom for more aggressive/ambitious music production. That appears to be a core strength.

[Scott]

I didn't suggest ' it can't be done ' with Fantom. I made the point you don't need a $4000 Fantom to perform " Don't Stop Believing " or "Urgent".

I have no problem with a keyboardist wanting the very best keyboard on the market, lets say its the $4000 Fantom, to play the above covers and others from the 70's/80's.

It seems like a ton of $$ to spend, when a much less expensive rig will easily do the job.

So I am thinking in a practical sense. If I am doing covers and have week end gigs, I am not thinking about showing off the $4000 Fantom.

Oh sure, you could absolutely do it with a much cheaper board. Yet many people DO buy pricey boards to do these kinds of gigs, whether they have been Nords, or Kronos, or Montage/Motif... because it makes for a better experience. And the Fantom is similarly well suited for this. But yeah, I could do a cover gig with just my Korg Microstation if I wanted to.

(p.s. - a couple of posts up, it looks like you posted just a dupe of an earlier post.)

[GregC]

I take it, you are good at improvising. That would seem to be a necessary skill to take advantage of the Fantom's on board controls.

I probably have brain lock, but if I was in a Foreigner or Journey cover band, it seems like a $4000 Fantom would not be my first choice of an everything gigging keyboard.
...
If you can, give me 3 vivid examples where Fantom and the keyboard player would light up the cover song. Not merely replicate the original recording.

It really doesn't matter whether you're improving or replicating (or for that matter, whether it's a general cover band as I mentioned, or more of a tribute band as you're talking about, or an original band). Regardless, there is an advantage to lots of knobs with dedicated functions. Look how popular the Nord Stage is for cover bands. Whether for setting up sounds in advance of the gig, or for manipulating the sounds during the gig, this approach provides a quick and easy way to work. (And Nord Stage 3 is even pricier than Fantom.)


If I were buying for cover band use today, I'd take the Fantom over the Kronos... because the things the Kronos does better can mostly be added to a Fantom by plugging it into an iPad or Microsoft Surface (both of which I happen to own), whereas the things the Fantom does better (operational ergonomics) can't be added to a Kronos at all. The reason I'm not buying a Fantom is that I already have the Kronos, and rarely gig with it, as I said, partly because of weight. So getting another board that is too heavy for me to want to gig with doesn't make sense.

I am paraphrasing what you posted to nail down certain points. Likely
this is not totally accurate.

I see 1 valid reason [ I asked for 3 ]. Its your performance satisfaction as a keyboard musician.

Having real time controls and playing with variation, is part of your expressiveness on the board.

Having a sophisticated keyboard that covers that requirement is a ' must have '. For your current cover gig or your tribute band. Or both.

You want the best rig. I agree- from that point of view. Or why the he** not ? You work/play hard, at it for decades, you deserve and require a great board.

I am pushing on the other side of personal preference. There are much less expensive tools, a Casio, a 5080 combination that will handle standard cover tunes from the 70's/80's. That genre has been well covered for gear/programming for the past 6-15 years. So , yes, this gear is not exciting.
I would not be bragging about it on the Internet. But it fits the job.

When all you need is a 10 year old Honda, a new Lexus GS F or a
new Toyota Land Cruiser is far to rich for the basics of getting around.
I think some folks go for expensive cars based on " Look at Me ".

[Scott]

I see 1 valid reason [ I asked for 3 ].

One is enough.

Its your performance satisfaction as a keyboard musician.

Having real time controls and playing with variation, is part of your expressiveness on the board.

That kind of control layout also makes it faster and easier to program your sounds ahead of the gig.

Having a sophisticated keyboard that covers that requirement is a ' must have '.

Not a must-have, but a nice-to-have.

I am pushing on the other side of personal preference. There are much less expensive tools, a Casio, a 5080 combination that will handle standard cover tunes from the 70's/80's.

Of course. But that's no more of an argument against doing cover gigs with a Fantom that it would be against using a Kronos or Nord Stage or Kurzweil Forte. People happily gig with all these boards. I don't see it as a reason to knock Fantom in particular, which from a control standpoint, arguably beats any of them. And any of these options will sound better and be more satisfying to play than the Casio+5080 combo, if that matters.

"What's the best cover band rig you could put together for under $1,000" is a different conversation. I'd probably say a Numa Compact 2X ($699) and an iPod Touch ($199), leaving you $100 for the necessary cabling and a handful of apps. You get 88 keys, aftertouch, 9 programmable real-time sliders, and a good battery of splittable/layerable sounds. Custom samples if needed can be handled by an app. And it only weighs about 15 lbs. Which means I'd actually take this over the Fantom or the Kronos.

ETA: p.s. -- the reason I'd add the iOS device rather than rely on the Numa alone is that it can be used to improve rapid patch selection, and fill in some sonic gaps in the Numa's sound set, like monophonic synth leads with portamento (as well as any need for custom samples, as I mentioned). I'd also probably use an organ app because the organ overdrive/rotary effect in the Numa is lame.

[jimknopf]

@Scott

I concede you have two valid arguments:

- I compare the Fantom with a Kronos, and regard it as MUCH overpriced in relation to that, to a degree that I wouldn't consider it even for a minute. But of course you can just as well compare it to a Nord 3 or a Montage - which both are also heavily overpriced keyboards compared to a Kronos in my book. Anyways, people still buy them for various reasons, the Nord mainly by gigging musicians, who like the immediacy and conving coverage of bread and butter sounds, and I guess the Montage mainly by classical Yamaha customers who don't want to jump ship/system/learned environment - plus some who perhaps think a big knob may help them, or they like the Yamaha sound. For the latter reason, I know more musicians who buy the MUCH better price/value related ModX then though, so price/value considerations obviously still DO matter.

- the controller surface: that's something really vital in everyday use, and as I agree, one of the positive points of the new offer. Still, the offered sound palette plus a nice surface (which can hardly be universal, as you know from many pure midi controllers) doesn't put it remotely into my range of wanting it at that price. But others may be ready to pay the price for what they get.

It's all fine either way...

And since people WILL certainly buy and use more of the new Fantoms, than they bought former Roland synths like the Jupiter 80, with its weirdly idiosyncratic OS, the times, when Korg still gets away by just another yearly Kronos paint job, are definitely over. Either Korg finally offers a fresh take on the flagship workhorse demand, or they will slowly or faster drift out of customer focus.

[theshinenz]

I think the point here, for covers etc of course you can get away with a cheaper keyboard, who really needs all the engines in the Kronos..... its not about that though, for players it how you connect with the instrument, if it inspires you or how it makes you feel to play it. Thats why price aside I think the Roland will be a big hit. You'll also see if on a lot of international stages/tours, and with its look it will be easy to tell what it is in a glance.

[Scott]

For the latter reason, I know more musicians who buy the MUCH better price/value related ModX then though, so price/value considerations obviously still DO matter.

I ended up with the MODX myself, but more because of low weight than low price. If the Montage 7 weighed 16 lbs like the MODX7 does, I might have bought that. It would have depended on how good a year I was having.

[GregC]

And since people WILL certainly buy and use more of the new Fantoms, than they bought former Roland synths like the Jupiter 80, with its weirdly idiosyncratic OS, the times, when Korg still gets away by just another yearly Kronos paint job, are definitely over. Either Korg finally offers a fresh take on the flagship workhorse demand, or they will slowly or faster drift out of customer focus.

That was the original drift of the O/p, would Korg get motivated to get their new concept keyboard game on.

I also see MODX as the working man's 1st choice.
It ticks most of the boxes. ($1039, $1900}

With Fantom, it appears this is going to be an object of desire.

Then there is our trusted friend , Kronos.
I think a used Kronos with a dealer warranty is a decent buy.
( $2000, $2600)

As much as I am comfortable with Korg w/s, if I was tight on the Benajmins,
its hard to not buy MODX. IOW, I think its an excellent choice for the $$.

So how does this effect a shiney new Kronos. [ $3000, $3799 } ?

I also have my opinion about Kronos new price.

What do you think ?