Korg Forums

X-Trade wrote:I think the problem with the KARMA GEs is that they do too much off the bat. Why doesn't the panning/CC effect default to being disabled? It's confusing and unpredictable and often the first thing I do when looking for an ARP is to go to the KARMA filter page and turn off everything except notes.
I think there's a systems/design concept called the principle of least astonishment that would be well applied here.
The same goes for default settings elsewhere. The default MS20 Init Prog for example has some envelope and filter movement and all other engines envelopes default to some strange shape that I would never use. Why don't they start off more 'neural'?

+1000

[EDIT]
To elaborate; wouldn't it be great if Karma was something simple and familiar to start with, with inspirational awesomeness upon tweaking some knobs - rather than something baffling from the start? I know where to turn off stuff, but I think you'd get a lot more people on board if your simple up/down patterns were really just that until you tweak.

qrobinez wrote: The best thing you could do is to get acquinted with the basics of KARMA programming. Actually, the basics aren't that hard to understand if you got a little knowledge of how hardware synths work and communicate.

I think you're missing my point. 99% of the time I don't need KARMA, so why would I want to learn about "PROGRAMMING" if I just want to get rid of it ?

I don't have a clue how hardware synths work. Luckily I can rely on really nice libraries that are offered for free by Kevin Nolan and yourself...

Sorry to say, I'm really the kind of guy that likes pressing one button and starts playing

qrobinez wrote: Some of those guys never heard of it because they are used to the extremely friendly VSTI user interfaces that hides all complexity in the user interface.

The Kronos hardware (touch screen, buttons, ...) is capable of offering that extremely friendly VSTI, so why shouldn't it ?

qrobinez wrote: You can solve this with one command: Initialize KARMA module, before you modify the program or combi. That way the complete default settings are restored and things work as expected.

Wow, that's a very helpful hint, thanks! Maybe I should reconsider that 250km drive ?

qrobinez wrote: Did you watch those tutorials and if so, which parts are unclear (so i could learn from them and maybe create a new tutorial which is more explaining to users). I've rewatched the tutorials and my opinion is that it is extremely easy to understand, so which point could i improve?

here are the two tutorials, the first one is for the basic wrapper functionality, the second one shows how to program the KARMA engine on a basic level (including changing the rythm from 16th notes to 8th notes by a switch)

Just watch them (in full screen and 720P, so you can read the screens) and let me know what i could improve...

I didn't watch those tutorials about KARMA because, like I said, I'm not really interested in KARMA.

But I must admit I'm not into "reading manuals" and rather "learn by experience". Usually this works. In other cases, I blame the design!

mathieumaes wrote: I think you're missing my point. 99% of the time I don't need KARMA, so why would I want to learn about "PROGRAMMING" if I just want to get rid of it ?

yes, but if you want to get rid of KARMA, then the only thing you have to do is leave the KARMA button off. That's not that hard i guess

mathieumaes wrote: I didn't watch those tutorials about KARMA because, like I said, I'm not really interested in KARMA.

But I must admit I'm not into "reading manuals" and rather "learn by experience". Usually this works. In other cases, I blame the design!

This i don't understand, in your previous post you said that you spent hours trying to get things done in KARMA. Why do it this way instead of spending 20 minutes watching a tutorial or spending 30 minutes reading a tutorial on wiki lab and be able to understand the basics of the system?

I think a lot of people that are saying that KARMA sucks are on the same boat as you. They don't want to spent time learning how to do things and believe that they should be able to do anything with the press of one button. That's fine by me, but a Korg Kronos is much more complex then that.

It's not only karma but also easy things like lfo's and ams sources for instance. Probably everyone can turn a dial on a VSTI where all these kind of routings are hidden for the end user, but on a real hardware synth you have to learn the internal routing system.

The Kronos is too complex to expect that you can press a button and understand how it works. Sure if you only want to play presets then this would work, but as soon as you want a little bit more you need to spent time to learn how to do it.

Now this also applies for some of the VSTI's, somebody said that Stephen should take a look at Stylus RMX to see how simple things could be. I don't agree at all with that example because Stylus RMX has a really complex interface when you dive in the real possibilities. For instance, try to change the Snare sound from a loop in stylus rmx, or add the Hihat pattern of a different loop to the first one. That perfectly possible, but it's really complex to find in the user interface and certainly not intuitive.

So my point is: if people bought such an expensive workstation, why spent hours and hours of trying to accomplish things when there are manuals and video guides available that teach you those things within a couple of minutes?

i don't get it

I get it, people are lazy.

qrobinez wrote: yes, but if you want to get rid of KARMA, then the only thing you have to do is leave the KARMA button off. That's not that hard i guess

Actually... yes!
The MIDI thru stuff still works when Karma is off, and look at the issue I had with the sticking notes. Karma was off!

The only way to be certain, is to disable karma in global mode. But then I can't use it when I actually want it

qrobinez wrote: This i don't understand, in your previous post you said that you spent hours trying to get things done in KARMA. Why do it this way instead of spending 20 minutes watching a tutorial or spending 30 minutes reading a tutorial on wiki lab and be able to understand the basics of the system?

Combination of stubbornness and lazyness, I guess

Add the fact I'm a programmer as well!

Whenever I develop software, I always keep in mind that the user won't read documentation and my mother-in-law might be using it!
I do a pretty good job reaching that goal, since I never get complaints it's "too complex"...

+1 Mathieu. That's the way I thought when I was a software developer. Also I tried to make it so you could press any button on the keyboard without doing any damage. I wish others would think that way. As for KARMA, the least said the better.

Bryan

I don't even mind software being complex, I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy for a musician
But I do think that most people encountering Karma think of it as basically an extravagant arpeggiator. And indeed, this is one of the most sought-after incarnations of Karma when starting to program it yourself. For that purpose, I think it would be really useful for both the user and Stephen if it were set up so that the simplest arp presets default to settings that simulate the classic arps. It's fine and even inspirational if the octave span increases after moving a slider, or a panning effect is introduced after moving another. But don't make me figure out where to turn off and contain 20 different things when I just want an arp up. It's just plain unnecessary to frustrate users that way and it turns off many people after their first experience with Karma, which is a real shame.

It is more than being lazy, i think people are afraid.

A Korg Workstation Without Karma, you'd might as well buy Roland or Yamaha....



First off, you need to approach karma a little less like a rocket scientist and a little more like a Rock & Roll scientist. Find the groove and flow with it.

Things are only as hard as you make them, grobinez's recent video on swapping karma GE's was an excellent learning experience. start swapping GE's around and learn what do and how they operate.

Personally my big issue is the screen font size.....but I put on a pair of 2X readers, and find everything I ever wanted to know, right there.

I love KARMA and it is also very useful to simulate playing techniques in real time, like guitar strumming, etc. So it is a great performance tool as well.

The arguments from some people (sorry Kevin), saying correspondingly: I have a degree in physics, and I don't get KARMA, so therefore KARMA is too hard to understand and is an unfinished product and must be too hard for anyone else without a degree...", are laughable.

It is very possible to use KARMA in a very musical way, without knowing every detail and you don't have to be a mastermind to cope with KARMA...

The problem is the user interface. But this is a general problem of Korg products. The UI looks ugly, clumsy and confusing, with the exception of the MS-20, CX3 and Polysix EXi's interface...

-

And the nub of the problem:

Grobinez said:

The Kronos is too complex to expect that you can press a button and understand how it works. Sure if you only want to play presets then this would work, but as soon as you want a little bit more you need to spent time to learn how to do it.

Yep ...it's about attitudes towards learning.

I'm not sure that learning KARMA through experience and 'hands-on' without also understanding how it works (i.e. reading the manuals) is going to be productive in terms of the time and effort expended - I wouldn't have understood what was going on if I hadn't read the manuals and followed the tutorials. IMO the time invested in learning how it works pays dividends when it comes to designing your own KARMA Combi's.

At the end of the day it's 'horses for courses' (as they say) and KARMA is just a tool. If you don't want to use it you don't have to, there's plenty more tools in the box.

(Like Wavesequencing and Vector Synthesis - I know it's in there and I'm sure I could create some great sequences, but I haven't got the inclination for an in-depth read of how it works nor the time to experiment enough to be familiar with it's operation. Maybe later I will. However I'm not going to get all critical because it's too complicated for me to program 'out of the box').

For those who only want simple ARP patterns it would be possible to create (adapt from the Kronos GE's) a set of User-GE's with only the octave range, duration (gate) and velocity (accent) controls enabled and then share the GE's on here as a .KGE file. User-GE's can be imported to the Kronos - see Parameter Guide Pg 839)

Dany wrote:It is very possible to use KARMA in a very musical way, without knowing every detail and you don't have to be a mastermind to cope with KARMA...-

+1 here. Dumbing down Karma does not sit well with me. Some things, especially those things that have the ability for great nuance, should not come easy. Besides, i love the "happy accidents" I create when I experiment.

my 2 cents.

SanderXpander wrote:

X-Trade wrote:I think the problem with the KARMA GEs is that they do too much off the bat. Why doesn't the panning/CC effect default to being disabled? It's confusing and unpredictable and often the first thing I do when looking for an ARP is to go to the KARMA filter page and turn off everything except notes.
I think there's a systems/design concept called the principle of least astonishment that would be well applied here.
The same goes for default settings elsewhere. The default MS20 Init Prog for example has some envelope and filter movement and all other engines envelopes default to some strange shape that I would never use. Why don't they start off more 'neural'?

+1000

[EDIT]
To elaborate; wouldn't it be great if Karma was something simple and familiar to start with, with inspirational awesomeness upon tweaking some knobs - rather than something baffling from the start? I know where to turn off stuff, but I think you'd get a lot more people on board if your simple up/down patterns were really just that until you tweak.

Not really. Then the users would complain that KARMA is too basic and need a lot of tweaking and knobs turning to make it sound awesome.

mathieumaes wrote:

qrobinez wrote: The best thing you could do is to get acquinted with the basics of KARMA programming. Actually, the basics aren't that hard to understand if you got a little knowledge of how hardware synths work and communicate.

I think you're missing my point. 99% of the time I don't need KARMA, so why would I want to learn about "PROGRAMMING" if I just want to get rid of it ?

I don't have a clue how hardware synths work. Luckily I can rely on really nice libraries that are offered for free by Kevin Nolan and yourself...

Sorry to say, I'm really the kind of guy that likes pressing one button and starts playing

qrobinez wrote: Some of those guys never heard of it because they are used to the extremely friendly VSTI user interfaces that hides all complexity in the user interface.

The Kronos hardware (touch screen, buttons, ...) is capable of offering that extremely friendly VSTI, so why shouldn't it ?

qrobinez wrote: You can solve this with one command: Initialize KARMA module, before you modify the program or combi. That way the complete default settings are restored and things work as expected.

Wow, that's a very helpful hint, thanks! Maybe I should reconsider that 250km drive ?

qrobinez wrote: Did you watch those tutorials and if so, which parts are unclear (so i could learn from them and maybe create a new tutorial which is more explaining to users). I've rewatched the tutorials and my opinion is that it is extremely easy to understand, so which point could i improve?

here are the two tutorials, the first one is for the basic wrapper functionality, the second one shows how to program the KARMA engine on a basic level (including changing the rythm from 16th notes to 8th notes by a switch)

Just watch them (in full screen and 720P, so you can read the screens) and let me know what i could improve...

I didn't watch those tutorials about KARMA because, like I said, I'm not really interested in KARMA.

But I must admit I'm not into "reading manuals" and rather "learn by experience". Usually this works. In other cases, I blame the design!

Sounds like you bought the wrong workstation. If you don't need KARMA don't use it. You can't really complain to KORG for including it.

Learn by experience?!! If you aren't even willing to spend some time learning KARMA, then don't complain that it's design is complex.

mathieumaes wrote:

qrobinez wrote: yes, but if you want to get rid of KARMA, then the only thing you have to do is leave the KARMA button off. That's not that hard i guess

Actually... yes!
The MIDI thru stuff still works when Karma is off, and look at the issue I had with the sticking notes. Karma was off!

The only way to be certain, is to disable karma in global mode. But then I can't use it when I actually want it

qrobinez wrote: This i don't understand, in your previous post you said that you spent hours trying to get things done in KARMA. Why do it this way instead of spending 20 minutes watching a tutorial or spending 30 minutes reading a tutorial on wiki lab and be able to understand the basics of the system?

Combination of stubbornness and lazyness, I guess

Add the fact I'm a programmer as well!

Whenever I develop software, I always keep in mind that the user won't read documentation and my mother-in-law might be using it!
I do a pretty good job reaching that goal, since I never get complaints it's "too complex"...

But KARMA is not a general use, it's to be used by Musicians. Think about all the synths in KRONOS. If someone doesn't have a clue about synthesis, they will be having same issue, as you are having with KARMA. Once you know KARMA's basic and the conventions used, then it will be much easier.

I think this is an example where the manufaturer decided to eliminate a feature that was a strength in the previous product.

Triton studio to M3 (lost the arp, lost the hard disk recorder)...
Fantom-X to Fantom-G (lost the arp, lost large capacity of samples (7000 to 2000))....
Motif-ES to Motif-EX (lost the plugin synth boards)

....