Is It Really Worth Getting?

[DrHoo]

Well the Kronos one is polyphonic, 4 more ENVs, four more LFOs, AMS on parameters with intensity and intensity modulation, two mixers and the audio patch points from the oscillators and filters are very usefull

I see. The synth you're describing in your quote i've put here is not an ms20.

No you are right it is much better!

That's just an unfair statement & not to comprehensive. O.k ,this thread is entitled 'Is it worth getting or not ?' so i'll try & keep it in context.
Couple of posts back 'LivePsy' said this " Calling analog generally warm is subjective" & now you're saying that your Kronos one "is much better" than the analogue ms20m

Subjective implies 'of personal taste or preference' which of course everyone has their own & quite right too. Well i can honestly say that based on personal experience that when i play a tone on an analogue & compare it to a tone on a virtual synth, the analogue is hands down warmer & fatter/phatter & i find that the virtual has more air surrounding its general sound. Another way to put that i guess is the analogue has more presence where the virtual sounds cleaner but thinner.
That's not to say it is better or worse, THAT part would be 'subjective'. Wouldn't want to deprive anyone of their own personal preference.

In fact i'd better be clear that i don't support the whole analogue v's digital thing at all. This is this & that is that...Fine ! I use a bit of both.

Is it worth getting or not then ? Well that IS subjective & really ,if you have an emulation of it that can even surpass the analogue model & you think it's better then fair play to you & i hope you get a big lot out of it but the emulation is not an ms20 , period !

Check this...I am not a Korg 'fan boy' (For want of a better phrase) in the same way that i'm not a fan boy of ANY manufacturer. However, i do like some Korg products & i love the ms20 mini but i'm not blinded with rose tinted glasses!
As far as i can tell, Korg have failed miserably in recreating the MS20 until this year when they introduced the first real attempt to build it again since the original ceased.
Every emulation between then & now has been a different synthesizer based on an analogue. As i type this ,that makes me think that if virtual synths were better, why are they trying to replicate analogues ?.....Einstein, where are you ?

Anyway, the new ms20m has a few build quality shortcomings but other than that it's fair to call it a faithful recreation of the original. It's sound is so close that the human ear can't tell the difference. It was never stated that this model was meant to be anything more or less than that.

SO...Better ? No. Worse ? No. Preferred ? Subjective, & that keeps it in context of this thread. It's the old 'apples or oranges ? Metric or imperial ?'

It's worth getting if you don't have an ms20 & want one...Deffo. (Unless you have enough cash for an original...Nice)

[BobTheDog]

The Kronos version for me is better, is it better for you if I say that?

I have both by the way.

[DrHoo]

Ah ha, now clarity is added ! Well, it was good for me if it was good for you
I can imagine the diversity of the Kronos. Never had the pleasure though. Can't buy one because all the moths in my pocket ate my money (He'll believe that)

[BobTheDog]

I would still recommend the mini to anyone though, it is a nice little synth. The oscillators and filter combination is fantastic.

Loads of people on Gearslutz went on and on about the noise but for me it adds some character.

Also the build quality on mine is fine for the money it cost, there is a slight wobble on the knobs but not much and all my sockets seem absolutely fine. Again from the reports on Gearslutz I thought it was going to be made out of silver foil or something!

[DrHoo]

Yes. I'm repeating myself here but there's noise & there's issue and they are two different things. I've had a better ,more considered experience at this forum than i've read anywhere else.
At the kind of levels i use it, it's not present other than as part of the make-up of the whole sound.
I think the build quality issues too can only be measured completely over a prolonged time spell & hey, if you look after it right !

When i first got mine, on day one i thought the plastic keys felt toy like but then after a bit they seem adequate for the task in hand. Most of the time i trigger it externally anyway. It's a great extra & i'm glad to have it on board, tis here to stay !
That patch panel, well what the heckers ? That alone will keep me busy for years. I make some great sounds with it but still can't remember more than half the patches i made & if users of the original still scratch their heads a bit then i feel a bit better about my lack of understanding.

[Bald Eagle]

So it can be a bit noisy but the consensus is that it's the way it's supposed to be and I can live with that. Still the build quality is a concern. I don't want to have to treat this like a fragile antique that's on display. I want to tweak the knobs and make full use of the patch panel. I just wish I could find a store that had a demo model to check out first.

[BobTheDog]

Honestly the build quality on mine is what I would expect for a synth of this cost.

[DrHoo]

It's really not that bad, honestly. Tweakability - yes. Patchability - yes. Minor build quality gripes - yes. Worth the pricetag - yes.

I respect your desire to test drive first. Maybe you'll get your chance soon. Might be a bumper crop arriving when they ship the equally anticipated volca's !
It's a shame that so many people want to test drive it but nobody can. You can look but you can't touch !

I think that the build quality gripes come from the idea that we all know that Korg could have done it better for just a bit more money & we would be happy to pay that little extra & have a smile from ear to ear about the whole unit. When you get to look at one though it's easy to see why things are the way they are.

Here's a little check list...

The case & end panels - No issue, solid metal faceplate with a decent paint job. Plastic end cheeks exactly as expected & they seem robust too.
Knobs - Divide them into two sorts . The larger ones (Osc wave select, Keyboard range selectors, filter cutoff's, Master volume pot) All feel good to me.

The smaller ones (All the rest) .Well, they have a light feel & some covers need teasing up the shafts a bit to stop them draging against
the faceplate. It's only because they've been pushed all the way home at the factory. No worries.
They are the light type with no resistive feel but they do their job properly. These are the ones
that get called wobbly...because they are. If you take a knob off & look at the pot shaft you can see that
it would be hard to break one & the flexibility actually helps it to not affect the solder joins.
It's the pot design itself & also ,the pots are metal clamped onto the pcb.

Have you watched the sonic state questions & answers video. Nick Batt clearly takes the time to reassure us all about those very things...But no bull !

[LivePsy]

Well i can honestly say that based on personal experience that when i play a tone on an analogue & compare it to a tone on a virtual synth, the analogue is hands down warmer & fatter/phatter & i find that the virtual has more air surrounding its general sound. Another way to put that i guess is the analogue has more presence where the virtual sounds cleaner but thinner.

Have you had the opportunity to compare the MS-20mini and MS-20Ex? I'm not sure how long ago you decided that all analog is warmer and fatter. If its a decade old conviction then I must say digital is way improved now. And I'm interested in how anyone feels about the background noise of the LPF of the analog and it being missing in the digital.

To be honest, I wonder if the immediate tweakability - the undeniable huge advantage of analog - plays a part in our perception of analog being better. Editing a parameters on the MS-20ex is far from fun.

B

[Re-Member]

And I'm interested in how anyone feels about the background noise of the LPF of the analog and it being missing in the digital.

I have the Korg Legacy Collection version and the Mini. On the digital version, the background noise is actually emulated, but it functions a bit differently. Turning down the cut off knob removes it along with the oscillators completely and leaves this weird clicking noise, whereas on the real version, it remains there depending on how the envelope settings are.

But I assure you, the background noise is not an issue. I can't repeat this more than enough since it actually ties into how the filter generates that overdrive/self-oscillation effect when you crank up the peak knobs.

[DrHoo]

Well i can honestly say that based on personal experience that when i play a tone on an analogue & compare it to a tone on a virtual synth, the analogue is hands down warmer & fatter/phatter & i find that the virtual has more air surrounding its general sound. Another way to put that i guess is the analogue has more presence where the virtual sounds cleaner but thinner.

Have you had the opportunity to compare the MS-20mini and MS-20Ex? I'm not sure how long ago you decided that all analog is warmer and fatter. If its a decade old conviction then I must say digital is way improved now. And I'm interested in how anyone feels about the background noise of the LPF of the analog and it being missing in the digital.

To be honest, I wonder if the immediate tweakability - the undeniable huge advantage of analog - plays a part in our perception of analog being better. Editing a parameters on the MS-20ex is far from fun.

B

I havn't compared the ms20ex (Or whatever that is) I just don't do software synths in computers.
You make a good point in that 'decade old conviction' thing. My most feature packed hardware synth is a micro-x. That could be over a decade old & although it sounds awesome, i don't like interface with screens & pages & menu's etc.. They keep me tied up with visual numbers & phrases & graphs & too many fine parameters.
I prefer some dirt in the mix, a bit more hap-hazard & organic.
That's what the noise is in the analogue. It's no good trying to get rid of those kind of properties from an instrument, you'd have to get rid of a part of the synth that made up elements of its character.

Just asking here too, who IS saying about the 'analogue's better' thing ? (Oh god, do i have to ask) I don't know anyone myself. I reckon it's all good. There's a million soft synth users out there who could teach me a trick or two. Much respect to all noisy tweakers.

[LivePsy]

Its all good, DrHoo. Hopefully we're beyond the flame wars of analog vs digital. Noise and design flaws are very much as part of a synth, whether its intentional or not. My trusty Triton Extreme has some of my favourite sounds and it has aliasing and all that early digital grit. Then again my Moog Voyager is great, but when you send an ext audio signal to the osc pitch for FM, its the most ugly un-analog sound you ever heard. Can't see how it is connected to the hybrid nature of patch storage. But its awful.

The only real problem with true analog is that you have to record on the spot, or don't touch the knobs until you record it. It is near impossible to recreate a sound days later.

EQ has a lot to do with sound, and its often overlooked. Extreme fixed band EQ can turn a patch into something completely different.

B

[DrHoo]

The only real problem with true analog is that you have to record on the spot, or don't touch the knobs until you record it. It is near impossible to recreate a sound days later.

I've battled with that in my head ! I think if you (Anyone) are coming from the pretense that everything must be backed up & saved then obviously that is a big barrier. Can't deny it, it's the big elephant in the room.
There's the whole way of thinking then that with restrictions in that department it's an immediate limitation & that ,that alone will make us get something down & recorded.
That's fine & i do practice that at the mo' but in reality my knobs & sliders spend two weeks at a time fixed in the same spot until i finish my current project. Thing is though, it's because i like stringing patterns together & making a track entire ! It's just the way i do it & i don't actually have to.

If i were use my gear in different ways say, just enjoying the fluid & evolving ways of playing, tweaking & ever changing, experimenting but not concerned with file storage then that big elephant would simply dissolve...End of barrier, freedom to roam here i come & all that.
The restrictions i have are brought about by my own ideals & the barriers i create. Making things more difficult.

[BobTheDog]

I did some side by side comparisons between the Kronos version and the mini for a couple of hours yesterday.

The LP filter on my mini is definitely 'on' more than the Kronos version, I needed to drop the kronos one to 9.5 ish to match it with fully open on my mini.

Testing the OSCs I cannot tell the difference between the two versions at all.

The LP Filter seems a little different bit not much, one thing I did notice is lets say I position the filter on the second harmonic of the saw wave when playing a low C with the PEAK on 10 then both sound pretty identical but if you then play the D then there is a difference. My guess is that the PEAK curve must be different when on max, I need to investigate this a bit further.

The envelopes are totally different, the sustain on the mini has a weird effect on the filters when it is over 5, it actually reduces the cutoff frequencies when controlling the filters the Kronos does not act in this way. This is the bit I thought was broken! Also the Kronos envelopes seem to be a bit quick when compared to the mini. A combination of these makes it harder to dial in the same settings on the kronos as on the mini.

I'm going to have a look at the comparing the highpass today.

One good thing about the mini in this testing is that dialing in the sounds is about 10 times easier than on the kronos and much more fun!

[LivePsy]

Thanks for this, it sounds like Korg fixed some flaws with the envelopes in the Ex version and its your call if that's an improvement. Even if every parameter acted exactly the same, you are sure to end up with a different track if you rework a project with the mini then the Ex.

I consider the MS-20mini one of the most desirable synths to date.
B