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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:14 pm
by Shakil
RonF wrote:jimknopf wrote:
But the one problem that is NOT solved this way is that you won't have access to all available factory combis as soon as you have two initialized user banks.
And you are forced to have two (one for EXis, one for HD1-sounds).
I have to agree with Jim here. The current situation is FINE. There are multiple work-arounds and conventions being used. GM or standard midi program change protocol may not be important to YOU, but it may very well be quite important to another. The Kronos advertises itself as being a GM keyboard and using the Midi spec. It has both those logos associated with it...and the requirement for that representation is that is be completely compatible with that convention.
BUT....a fundamental design structure of the K is that each bank is fixed to a file type...HD1 or EXi. Therein....the ONLY way to use the whole palette of onboard sounds is, currently, to make a choice to sacrifice something....either factory sound(s), or custom EXi or HD1 programs. You cannot have all 3 in place, currently. This is based on the core structure of Kronos file types. There SHOULD be a way to load one of each bank types, without sacrificing factory sounds.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:20 pm
by Shakil
RonF wrote:jimknopf wrote:
But the one problem that is NOT solved this way is that you won't have access to all available factory combis as soon as you have two initialized user banks.
And you are forced to have two (one for EXis, one for HD1-sounds).
I have to agree with Jim here. The current situation is FINE. There are multiple work-arounds and conventions being used. GM or standard midi program change protocol may not be important to YOU, but it may very well be quite important to another. The Kronos advertises itself as being a GM keyboard and using the Midi spec. It has both those logos associated with it...and the requirement for that representation is that is be completely compatible with that convention.
BUT....a fundamental design structure of the K is that each bank is fixed to a file type...HD1 or EXi. Therein....the ONLY way to use the whole palette of onboard sounds is, currently, to make a choice to sacrifice something....either factory sound(s), or custom EXi or HD1 programs. You cannot have all 3 in place, currently. This is based on the core structure of Kronos file types. There SHOULD be a way to load one of each bank types, without sacrificing factory sounds.
RonF, think of the 9 Synth engines as 9 VST instruments. You have their own banks of Programs.
I am all up for improvements, but I think the filing system is fine. There are other areas where KORG should dedicate recourses, like quality controls, sequencer, and the Editor.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:23 pm
by Shakil
Also, the title of this thread speaks for itself. There are never going to be enough program banks. Even if 10 more are added.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:35 pm
by michelkeijzers
Shakil wrote:Also, the title of this thread speaks for itself. There are never going to be enough program banks. Even if 10 more are added.
The most flexible way is if there would indeed be a dynamic number of lists. Currently each bank has 128 programs. It wouldn't be that difficult to use bank numbers instead of bank names. Then you can have like 128 banks. Or what even would be better: have dynamic banks, both in size and number. So initially you have 0 banks. If you want a new bank, just add 'Add bank'. You can also delete banks. It only cost (SSD) memory to add a bank. You want 50 programs in a bank? ok. 150 combis? ok. Just add functions like 'Add/remove/insert' Program, 'Add/remove/insert' bank. You want program 385-867? ok ... this is in bank 385 and number 867.
It's only memory
No hardware changes needed.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:41 pm
by BasariStudios
I dont know if peoples brains are frozen or what but i give up.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:47 pm
by Shakil
michelkeijzers wrote:Shakil wrote:Also, the title of this thread speaks for itself. There are never going to be enough program banks. Even if 10 more are added.
The most flexible way is if there would indeed be a dynamic number of lists. Currently each bank has 128 programs. It wouldn't be that difficult to use bank numbers instead of bank names. Then you can have like 128 banks. Or what even would be better: have dynamic banks, both in size and number. So initially you have 0 banks. If you want a new bank, just add 'Add bank'. You can also delete banks. It only cost (SSD) memory to add a bank. You want 50 programs in a bank? ok. 150 combis? ok. Just add functions like 'Add/remove/insert' Program, 'Add/remove/insert' bank. You want program 385-867? ok ... this is in bank 385 and number 867.
It's only memory
No hardware changes needed.
You must be kidding. That kind of flexibilty will be too distracting and chaotic. And who is going talk MIDI?
I know some people who scream over number based banks. You on the other hand don't like named files.
You want to make your own collection of sounds? That is not a problem. Just make a copy of the PCG and import programs you like and create combos from those.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:49 pm
by BasariStudios
Shakil wrote:You want to make your own collection of sounds? That is not a problem. Just make a copy of the PCG and import programs you like and create combos from those.
And WHERE THE HELL would you import that Program if you have no Bank for it?
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:02 pm
by michelkeijzers
Shakil wrote:michelkeijzers wrote:Shakil wrote:Also, the title of this thread speaks for itself. There are never going to be enough program banks. Even if 10 more are added.
The most flexible way is if there would indeed be a dynamic number of lists. Currently each bank has 128 programs. It wouldn't be that difficult to use bank numbers instead of bank names. Then you can have like 128 banks. Or what even would be better: have dynamic banks, both in size and number. So initially you have 0 banks. If you want a new bank, just add 'Add bank'. You can also delete banks. It only cost (SSD) memory to add a bank. You want 50 programs in a bank? ok. 150 combis? ok. Just add functions like 'Add/remove/insert' Program, 'Add/remove/insert' bank. You want program 385-867? ok ... this is in bank 385 and number 867.
It's only memory
No hardware changes needed.
You must be kidding. That kind of flexibilty will be too distracting and chaotic. And who is going talk MIDI?
I know some people who scream over number based banks. You on the other hand don't like named files.
You want to make your own collection of sounds? That is not a problem. Just make a copy of the PCG and import programs you like and create combos from those.
I don't know if it's distracting. It's maybe unusual for hardware synths, but since we are used to software synths more and more the idea is not that strange.
MIDI can be a little more trickier indeed. But anything can be solved. One solution is to save per program a bank and program number for MIDI. So patch 345-864 might be coupled to MIDI bank 235, program 26. Those should be unique of course. And the max. number of programs is 256 * 256 = 65536 ... that would be enough I guess.
I don't dislike named PCGs, but if it can be stored in one PCG it's maybe better. Than you don't need a librarian at all and it is always nice to have anything within reach.
But I also would be happy with just 128 banks with 128 programs
... or 32 banks ... actually I'm glad with the current number of banks, but I only want to show nothing what I wrote is impossible.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:12 pm
by RonF
Shakil wrote:RonF wrote:jimknopf wrote:
But the one problem that is NOT solved this way is that you won't have access to all available factory combis as soon as you have two initialized user banks.
And you are forced to have two (one for EXis, one for HD1-sounds).
I have to agree with Jim here. The current situation is FINE. There are multiple work-arounds and conventions being used. GM or standard midi program change protocol may not be important to YOU, but it may very well be quite important to another. The Kronos advertises itself as being a GM keyboard and using the Midi spec. It has both those logos associated with it...and the requirement for that representation is that is be completely compatible with that convention.
BUT....a fundamental design structure of the K is that each bank is fixed to a file type...HD1 or EXi. Therein....the ONLY way to use the whole palette of onboard sounds is, currently, to make a choice to sacrifice something....either factory sound(s), or custom EXi or HD1 programs. You cannot have all 3 in place, currently. This is based on the core structure of Kronos file types. There SHOULD be a way to load one of each bank types, without sacrificing factory sounds.
RonF, think of the 9 Synth engines as 9 VST instruments. You have their own banks of Programs.
I am all up for improvements, but I think the filing system is fine. There are other areas where KORG should dedicate recourses, like quality controls, sequencer, and the Editor.
Of course I see your point. Korg will never mix and match HD1 and EXi in the same bank. Entirely separate file type. Hence my opinion that at least ONE free bank for EACH file type is necessary, at a minimum.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:16 pm
by michelkeijzers
RonF wrote:...
Of course I see your point. Korg will never mix and match HD1 and EXi in the same bank. Entirely separate file type. Hence my opinion that at least ONE free bank for EACH file type is necessary, at a minimum.
I agree. If people after some time would start searching for free space for new programs than it could be justified to only have one bank, but if they start to have already problems when they make the first (or second) change, then I would say it's an immediate problem.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:27 pm
by RonF
Shakil wrote:Also, the title of this thread speaks for itself. There are never going to be enough program banks. Even if 10 more are added.
Agreed. You refer here to the very nature of "banks", and the demands and diverse opinions of end users. But you certainly CAN HAVE too few banks, technically speaking....where-in the keyboard is not built with the capacity to house its very own content. The Kronos ships with only one "open" user bank for programs... yet requires by its very structure that at least two banks be "open" to save even ONE user edit of each file type (without overwriting the factory content, which is ubiquitous to the operation of the keyboard, including its Combi dependancies). Pretty much any keyboard out there has open slots to save user patches. Assuming you use the default HD1 file type of bank U-G as shipped from the factory, then you cannot edit or write ANY EXi programs on the Kronos as shipped.....sans overwriting the factory content. That is an unusual situation to say the least. Sure....there are work-arounds using the file system on the K. And they are quite functional indeed. But this does not ultimately compensate for what I would expect as standard fare on any workstation synthesizer.....the ability to use its edit functions to create your own patches....and save them, right out of the box, without making sacrifices to the overall functionality of the factory sound content.
At least two banks seem mandatory (so to speak). Anything more, as you say, is subjective, and no matter what, will never by "enough". One bank (as it is) is sub-par, IMHO.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:28 pm
by RonF
michelkeijzers wrote:RonF wrote:...
Of course I see your point. Korg will never mix and match HD1 and EXi in the same bank. Entirely separate file type. Hence my opinion that at least ONE free bank for EACH file type is necessary, at a minimum.
I agree. If people after some time would start searching for free space for new programs than it could be justified to only have one bank, but if they start to have already problems when they make the first (or second) change, then I would say it's an immediate problem.
EXACTLY....my point. +1
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:45 pm
by EnjoyRC
Found this for a bit of calculations of how much RAM would be needed for some of the stuff we're talking about...
Thanx Stephen,
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 502#377502
Somewhere in there you can figure out how much memory HD-1 and EXi programs use.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:09 pm
by Shakil
BasariStudios wrote:Shakil wrote:You want to make your own collection of sounds? That is not a problem. Just make a copy of the PCG and import programs you like and create combos from those.
And WHERE THE HELL would you import that Program if you have no Bank for it?
You are lucky that you can load it to any slot as all slots can be overwritten.
On other
You can collect, sounds by project into PCGs.
KORG needs to pre head 4 Exi banks & 3 HD banks. Leave I banks blank and let the user decide what to do with those.
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:18 pm
by BasariStudios
Shakil wrote:BasariStudios wrote:Shakil wrote:You want to make your own collection of sounds? That is not a problem. Just make a copy of the PCG and import programs you like and create combos from those.
And WHERE THE HELL would you import that Program if you have no Bank for it?
You are lucky that you can load it to any slot as all slots can be overwritten.
On other
You can collect, sounds by project into PCGs.
Hahahaha...laughable. Do you actually know what a Workstation is?
Or at least any Korg Workstation? Do you know how the previous Korg
WSs worked? Does it make sense to you cutting the MOST essential
feature on the newer 3000$ model? Did you read Everything i said or
you just picked and chosed?