PETITION KORG POLL for KARMA 3 for KRONOS

ChrisP · Post by **ChrisP** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:53 pm

Thanks a ton for the very detailed explanation. It was enjoyable reading through it. All the very best with 3.0.

I'm still learning to program Karma on Kronos and still discovering beautiful usage of Karma.

Who wouldn't want the latest and greatest, but for my level, I guess 2.2 will keep me going for years :)

AMR · Post by **AMR** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:28 pm

If Korg works the math on all models sold, it's hard to see it as minimally profitable to have an engineering team working on it (although an engineering team is not that expensive, the priority is to cash in fast and strong with a plethora of other products).

But what they fail to see these days is how many more Kronos they'd sell if they did invest in R&D. It's a recession though...

Having said that, I would pay to have it integrated into Kronos (clean code, not, and I don't mean Steve here, buggy one-man-made epical-but-lame programming that seems to flame Kronos working ENV), that and having ergonomical designers, not geek engineers, think up the GUI...

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:24 pm

AMR wrote:If Korg works the math on all models sold, it's hard to see it as minimally profitable to have an engineering team working on it (although an engineering team is not that expensive, the priority is to cash in fast and strong with a plethora of other products).

But what they fail to see these days is how many more Kronos they'd sell if they did invest in R&D. It's a recession though...

Having said that, I would pay to have it integrated into Kronos (clean code, not, and I don't mean Steve here, buggy one-man-made epical-but-lame programming that seems to flame Kronos working ENV), that and having ergonomical designers, not geek engineers, think up the GUI...

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

Ok let's assume the GUI of the Kronos needs to be redesigned. A very rought estimation of what is needed:
1 project lead
1 architect
5 software engineers
3 testers

Let's say it takes about a year to create (which is quite realistic; it's not a PC application, testing takes much longer probably).

Average salary is about $50 dollars an hour (I keep it very low).
That is 160 hrs /month * 10 months (vacation etc) * 50 $/hr * 10 people = $800,000 euros ... I didn't couldn't office space, overhead (administration, computers, development software etc). That means IF 10,000 Kronosses would be sold $80 per Kronos as additional cost which is quite substantial. Especially because others would want other requests costing maybe a similar additional costs.

So please never say an engineering team is not that expensive.

AMR · Post by **AMR** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:28 am

michelkeijzers wrote:
AMR wrote:If Korg works the math on all models sold, it's hard to see it as minimally profitable to have an engineering team working on it (although an engineering team is not that expensive, the priority is to cash in fast and strong with a plethora of other products).

But what they fail to see these days is how many more Kronos they'd sell if they did invest in R&D. It's a recession though...

Having said that, I would pay to have it integrated into Kronos (clean code, not, and I don't mean Steve here, buggy one-man-made epical-but-lame programming that seems to flame Kronos working ENV), that and having ergonomical designers, not geek engineers, think up the GUI...

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com
Ok let's assume the GUI of the Kronos needs to be redesigned. A very rought estimation of what is needed:
1 project lead
1 architect
5 software engineers
3 testers

Let's say it takes about a year to create (which is quite realistic; it's not a PC application, testing takes much longer probably).

Average salary is about $50 dollars an hour (I keep it very low).
That is 160 hrs /month * 10 months (vacation etc) * 50 $/hr * 10 people = $800,000 euros ... I didn't couldn't office space, overhead (administration, computers, development software etc). That means IF 10,000 Kronosses would be sold $80 per Kronos as additional cost which is quite substantial. Especially because others would want other requests costing maybe a similar additional costs.

So please never say an engineering team is not that expensive.

It's late here and I'm going to be boring...

In a nutshell, It isn't (that expensive), even though that was around 10% of the post. Replacing the RH3 is way more of a nightmare with costs beyond financial. R&D would also have gains beyond financial too, although in a recession, $ numbers are king.

Mind that I meant developing a GUI upwards from Karma 2 to 3, not the whole OS and please also mind that "not that expensive" stands in relation to the Kronos full project budget. If the OS was developed with higiene from start, which it may have beem, messing with the core engine of Kronos should be no rocket science.

Moving on, your time lapse (one year?!!!!) is way way too generous for a team with 5 engineers. You'd only need a couple at most, no architect (what the hell is that? it's an engineer!), and the project leader would be an engineer too, who can hold both leading and coding roles. The problem is knowing the code, if no one does, then you'd need a gazillion to reverse engineer the whole thing in order to make sense of it not adding bugs in rushed upgrades.

Development of a Karma3 integration should be fast (it's a matter of introducing current inputs (the knobs and touchscreens), through a new set of variables (karma 3) to the same outputs (notes, basically, and MIDI channels), making the GUI focus on new (richer) matrixes of editing, carefully keeping compatibility with v2 (a simple flag can keep both versions totally independent, does shielding v2 patches from v3 possible bugs). Again, it's all a matter if the thing was though out well from beginning.

Finally, user requests should be easy to add in an open platform. Most of the art is thinking of it from start as modular, self-regulated and bullet proof application from start, generally implying the root development of API's for further enhancements thus preventing upgrades from damaging the core engine.

Anyway, forgetting project leading, assuming 3k Kronos were sold to date, you'd never have any profit even if the team was based in Haiti getting 50 cents a day and finishing it in weeks - because the goal is to make it free and sell more keyboards (and the due licensing to Stephen, if that's the business model), not to sell the developed engine itself as an added plus.

The trick here is getting more sales and adding value through established and unquestioned market superiority, and making it the unquestionable superior, something not possible if only some adquire the engine as an option (and only some will do).

I've done countless budgets/project leading/coding mega-projects, it's not that expensive (this particular case), the most important role is one you've missed, a financial controller - not that relevant when you're dealing with virtual goods (basically, lines of code) - although it's the role that places the brakes when the whole project starts to return minus that zero, which may be the case, thus making investing even 1 dollar in R&D mathmatically "expensive".

What may take one year to code is some new DSP which requires investigation, but menus and windows, or new frameworks within the same input/output space should take work, not investigation, and quite labourous I grant, but quite fast too and engineers is a luxury here, but I'd go with it given the demand level of the final customer...

Sorry for any wrong English or mumbling, it's nearly 3:30 am around here...

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:24 pm

Hello AMR,

I was under the assumpation you meant to redesign (not only change) the complete GUI of the Kronos, probably I have misread.

Of course only changing a part of it (like from Karma 2 to 3) is (much) less.

An architect is not an engineer, it is someone who has an understanding of the whole and can make decisions going outwards of the project/team.
For a project of 2 engineers no architect is needed (at least not a full time architect), for 5 engineers it might be.

I don't think a financial controller is crucial in this process; maybe some in the front but afterwards the specs should be created (by the architect?).

So my post was in no way to attack your sentences, but I thought you meant redesigning the complete GUI.

Kind regards,

Michel

FGTH · Post by **FGTH** » Tue May 01, 2012 9:37 am

StephenKay wrote:Hi all,

Dreaming - what I'd really love to do is make a new dedicated workstation, based on KARMA 3 (or even
KARMA 4, which already has some entries in my development database for potential advancements), sort of a
Karma Workstation Mark II. Ah yeah, sure...

Incidentally, this is slightly different, but I've tried on-and-off to interest Korg Italy (different group of people
from Korg Inc.) in the possibility of a Korg arranger keyboard combining regular arranger features, and then
KARMA on top of it to add that slightly unpredictable human element and all of the randomization and
variability and interactivity that KARMA provides. I truly think that might be the best of both worlds. But
they seem quite happy with what they are doing there and basically seem to have no real interest. But I think
it would be very cool...and desirable... you can see from my new video (link above) that I tend to like the
more arranger-style approach with the KARMA Motif Performances, yet they are variable and "alive" to a
degree that no arranger actually is... but I'm just rambling right now.

However, I do have a long relationship with
Athan Billias (Yamaha USA Product Manager) from back when he was the head of Korg Voicing in Japan and
first brought me there to work on waveform editing for the Korg 01/W over 20 years ago, and now that he's
with Yamaha, when I approached him about the idea of KARMA Motif they were more than happy to provide
some development units and have promised to help in marketing and promotion. Yamaha has always had a
very good relationship with and support of third-party developers....

Hi Stephen!

Thanks for the answer. I have a suggestion about your dream of creating a new workstation with Karma 3.0 or 4.0. Since Korg Italy wasn't interested, why not offer the same project to Yamaha.

Can you imagine a keyboard like the Tyros or even a PSR top model with Karma technology build in it?

That would be something else. Anyway, just a thought.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Tue May 01, 2012 9:41 am

FGTH wrote:
StephenKay wrote:Hi all,

...

Hi Stephen!

Thanks for the answer. I have a suggestion about your dream of creating a new workstation with Karma 3.0 or 4.0. Since Korg Italy wasn't interested, why not offer the same project to Yamaha.

Can you imagine a keyboard like the Tyros or even a PSR top model with Karma technology build in it?

That would be something else. Anyway, just a thought.

I think if he is wise he would contact every possible customer (Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Nord etc).

The Karma system is so flexible, I think it could (theorethically) be used for ANY keyboard.

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Wed May 02, 2012 4:38 am

Yes, and only because Karma is the best thing since the invention of the drum machine.

The only bad thing about Karma is that it's eliminated the need for other instruments and musicians, basically, put them out of work.

Karma is the best band I've ever been in and they never complian about my less than par playing.

Thanks Stephen, Karma has become part of my music life.

Can't wait for the Motif XF Karma, looks like fun.

Howard

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Thu May 03, 2012 2:09 am

Karma is indeed an absolutely amazing thing but I am absolutely sure it hasn't eliminated any musicians jobs. except maybe some lousy ones! Hah!I guess I'm fortunate in that I've generally only played with very good musicians.Ones who have a good grasp of their instruments and can spontaneously create music when required to. I have met the odd player who can't jam on the spot and make up music but they are few and far between and I feel sorry for them.
Karma also can't create. It can do a pretty good simulation and can truly stir your own creativity but try playing with some other really good musicians. Far better.
Now don't get me wrong here. I love Karma, I use it in my studio too, but only for practising and it IS a lot of fun. Maybe one day I'll get into the dance music thing and come up with something, but for now, I'm sticking with live guys!
the important thing though is, have fun making music! No matter how you do it!

midinut · Post by **midinut** » Thu May 03, 2012 4:10 am

Someone already mentioned an iPad app ( which I think would be awesome ) but I wonder how feasible it would be to make Karma 3 work with VSTs? I seem to remember SK working with Open Labs at one point. Did that ever produce anything that worked with VSTs? If so, it would seem that could be doable and possibly even controlled by iOS devices. Just dreaming out loud.

robkeith · Post by **robkeith** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:28 pm

Yes I would be happy to pay for it, but Korg have some mighty big probs on thier hands currently. They need to fix OS 1.6 urgently, develop an editor that is 100 workable and not ancient, and then maybe they should look at updates.

Love the Kronos, sold my Motif to buy it, wished I hadn't, Karma 3 looks fantastic, and in regards to Korg Italy and the arranger keyboards, this is the major problem with Korg overall now, they don't listen to us any more

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Wed May 23, 2012 1:32 pm

midinut wrote:Someone already mentioned an iPad app ( which I think would be awesome ) but I wonder how feasible it would be to make Karma 3 work with VSTs? I seem to remember SK working with Open Labs at one point. Did that ever produce anything that worked with VSTs? If so, it would seem that could be doable and possibly even controlled by iOS devices. Just dreaming out loud.

true, it would be nice, but you can use KARMA already with your Kronos and VSTI's.

On the other hand, there are some killer apps for the ipad for creating arpeggiated patterns with your vsti's or hardware.

For instance you could check the Step Poly Arp App. It's a great app for that purpose!

http://laurentcolson.com/steppolyarp.html

cello · Post by **cello** » Wed May 30, 2012 6:09 pm

Thanks for the tip QR - just bought it; looks fab

kingtj · Post by **kingtj** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:25 pm

I'm, honestly, of the opinion that I'd only be willing to pay for Karma 3.0 if it was actually integrated into the Kronos itself -- not a separate app for Mac or PC.

I understand this is the LEAST likely to happen scenario -- but IMHO, you either do this the right way, or I'm going to pass on spending my hard-earned money on it.

I have nothing against computer software solutions, mind you. I simply think that when one pays the type of money a Kronos costs, and the unit is sold as an all-inclusive music workstation, there's an expectation that improved versions of built-in features would be, you know ... built in?

Once I go down the road of having to load up extra software on a computer to make some of the functionality work? I have to seriously question why I'm using that workstation in the first place, vs. moving to an entirely computer-based alternative with a MIDI keyboard controller attached.

I've had a long-standing admiration of the synth products Korg has built over the years -- but it's increasingly clear that due to the economy and market realities, Korg is struggling these days. Even their "flagship" workstation doesn't deliver on everything promised for over a YEAR after its release. Perhaps Yamaha is in a more advantageous position, as their company sells a lot of other products having nothing to do with music, which help keep them afloat? (I haven't seen any Korg motorcycles or ATVs on the road, after all!)

robkeith wrote:Yes I would be happy to pay for it, but Korg have some mighty big probs on thier hands currently. They need to fix OS 1.6 urgently, develop an editor that is 100 workable and not ancient, and then maybe they should look at updates.

Love the Kronos, sold my Motif to buy it, wished I hadn't, Karma 3 looks fantastic, and in regards to Korg Italy and the arranger keyboards, this is the major problem with Korg overall now, they don't listen to us any more

Post by **Sharp** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:09 pm

Sticky Pin Removed....

Korg Forums

PETITION KORG POLL for KARMA 3 for KRONOS

Would you buy Karma 3 for Kronos?

Yeah....