Never enough banks - v1.5 Fixes This!!

[gjvti]

now i am asking you a simple
question:
How the HELL should i menage my Sounds with only one User Bank?
YES! I will repeat, a User Bank cuz thats what it is, we need 2 of those.
Forget that you work for Korg for a minute, just simply as a Kronos User
tell me a workaround...of course, dont tell me to erase Factory Stuff please
and yes, i repeat, Factory Sounds cuz thats what it is...
And yes...its a 3000$ machine.

As others have also suggested, I save and load PCG files on disk. Typically I use one per project. It's easy and fast.

- Dan

That obviously is fine with programs, but not so well when combis are involved with modified program banks. This gets really messy then. Just a little touch could easily solve that banks/programs/combis problem - an indication * or () or [] for particular program name if it is used in a combi and/or drop down menu option to show list of combis which rely on particular program. Perhaps it is moths and months to develop that, but that will solve lots of headache for users which trend to make their own programs. I wish that Korg remembered to add this little touch, when building next workstation

[michelkeijzers]

now i am asking you a simple
question:
How the HELL should i menage my Sounds with only one User Bank?
YES! I will repeat, a User Bank cuz thats what it is, we need 2 of those.
Forget that you work for Korg for a minute, just simply as a Kronos User
tell me a workaround...of course, dont tell me to erase Factory Stuff please
and yes, i repeat, Factory Sounds cuz thats what it is...
And yes...its a 3000$ machine.

As others have also suggested, I save and load PCG files on disk. Typically I use one per project. It's easy and fast.

- Dan

That obviously is fine with programs, but not so well when combis are involved with modified program banks. This gets really messy then. Just a little touch could easily solve that banks/programs/combis problem - an indication * or () or [] for particular program name if it is used in a combi and/or drop down menu option to show list of combis which rely on particular program. Perhaps it is moths and months to develop that, but that will solve lots of headache for users which trend to make their own programs. I wish that Korg remembered to add this little touch, when building next workstation

It took me about 5 days to make a program to do this and I had most work finding out the PCG structure. Of course embedded programming is more elaborate and testing needs to be done more extensively but I would say it is about 2 manweeks work. You can use my app instead however it is far more convenient if it would be in the synth itself.

When can we write our own plugin code in a Korg?

[EnjoyRC]

Is Set List mode controllable via MIDI?
I think, for external MIDI control, mode like Set List is all that needed.

Yes. see
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=63461

[Megakazbek]

I can't believe they (and, to be fair, other keyboard companies too) still use this bank system in 2011.
There is no sense to limit amount of sounds in a bank to 128,

MIDI Program Change.

How does this prevent banks to be of unlimited size?
The issue of program change can be avoided in many ways. I personally cannot think of any realistic scenario when you're forced to use MIDI to select any program. IMHO, acceptable solution would be to create a set list with certain programs/combis if you need to select them via MIDI.
Or if it is absolutely necessary, programs can have secondary MIDI addressing, you can address virtually unlimited programs with MIDI bank:program pairs, they just wouldn't correspond to real banks (which is much less inconvenience than having limited amount of program slots).

or even limiting amount of banks themselves.

Memory management & hardware integration.

In current Kronos system - yes, but it could be designed differently. Banks could be simply folders on hard drive, for example.
I understand that it's almost impossible to change some things now when the OS is finished, but I was talking from general design point of view. It is strange to me that some obsolete things were not redesigned for an instrument of year 2011.

There is no sense to store them in memory, SSD is just as fine.

Latency.

There is already enough latency when switching programs. SSD with its almost zero access time would add pretty unnoticeable latency compared to what it is now, especially if some caching is used. On a computer I can flick through hundreds of pictures faster than Kronos changes programs and pictures are much bigger than Kronos programs.

There is no sense in making GM bank fixed and unchangeable.

GM standard.

How does it prevents you to make GM bank overwritable? If I want to use GM, I simply won't overwrite it. There could be GM bank saved on HDD with all factory data, and if I suddenly want to play some GM songs, I can just load it back. It is not reasonable IMHO to force Kronos to be always GM-compatible when in fact probably almost none of its users ever use GM.

[EnjoyRC]

There is no sense in making GM bank fixed and unchangeable.

GM standard.

It would be cool if Korg would simply provide us with a GM.PCG bank. Then, those who actually need a GM bank can load it into any bank as needed.

[michelkeijzers]

There is no sense in making GM bank fixed and unchangeable.

GM standard.

It would be cool if Korg would simply provide us with a GM.PCG bank. Then, those who actually need a GM bank can load it into any bank as needed.

However, the GM bank is in ROM so this it is not a matter of freeing it for having more banks. It's also not in the PCG file.

[EnjoyRC]

GM standard.

It would be cool if Korg would simply provide us with a GM.PCG bank. Then, those who actually need a GM bank can load it into any bank as needed.

However, the GM bank is in ROM so this it is not a matter of freeing it for having more banks. It's also not in the PCG file.

Understood. I was pointing out this proposed solution in lieu of the way Korg currently has it implemented. It'd be nice if a future OS update would free up the I-G bank or banks.

[michelkeijzers]

It would be cool if Korg would simply provide us with a GM.PCG bank. Then, those who actually need a GM bank can load it into any bank as needed.

However, the GM bank is in ROM so this it is not a matter of freeing it for having more banks. It's also not in the PCG file.

Understood. I was pointing out this proposed solution in lieu of the way Korg currently has it implemented. It'd be nice if a future OS update would free up the I-G bank or banks.

Well it would be nice to not see them in the program list because most of the GMs are not that interesting, but another post is already about that issue.

With some extra disk space and a software update we could have the following changes:
- Pressing a bank button U-A to U-G shows that bank
- pressing a bank button AGAIN gives banks V-A to V-G
This can be repeated for a few times to get banks W-A to W-G and X-A to X-G

This means 24 additional program and combi banks
And of course a lot of space for PCG and some on disk (few hunderd MB)
And some screens need to be changed to show not only I and U banks but also V W and X banks.

[RonF]

But the one problem that is NOT solved this way is that you won't have access to all available factory combis as soon as you have two initialized user banks.
And you are forced to have two (one for EXis, one for HD1-sounds).

I have to agree with Jim here. The current situation is FINE. There are multiple work-arounds and conventions being used. GM or standard midi program change protocol may not be important to YOU, but it may very well be quite important to another. The Kronos advertises itself as being a GM keyboard and using the Midi spec. It has both those logos associated with it...and the requirement for that representation is that is be completely compatible with that convention.

BUT....a fundamental design structure of the K is that each bank is fixed to a file type...HD1 or EXi. Therein....the ONLY way to use the whole palette of onboard sounds is, currently, to make a choice to sacrifice something....either factory sound(s), or custom EXi or HD1 programs. You cannot have all 3 in place, currently. This is based on the core structure of Kronos file types. There SHOULD be a way to load one of each bank types, without sacrificing factory sounds.

[Kevin Nolan]

now i am asking you a simple
question:
How the HELL should i menage my Sounds with only one User Bank?
YES! I will repeat, a User Bank cuz thats what it is, we need 2 of those.
Forget that you work for Korg for a minute, just simply as a Kronos User
tell me a workaround...of course, dont tell me to erase Factory Stuff please
and yes, i repeat, Factory Sounds cuz thats what it is...
And yes...its a 3000$ machine.

As others have also suggested, I save and load PCG files on disk. Typically I use one per project. It's easy and fast.

- Dan

But as I've pointed out Dan on many a thread - neither OASYS nor Kronos allow for rapid development work where many program changes are needed - AND - you need to seamlessly track those; and from project to project. While PCG files are fine, they are not fine enough - as in - to allow the user to think and work in a natural, organised way as with folders, categories and individual programs as provided by even the cheapest plugin synths. Saving PCG files just does not cut it in real world scenarios.

With 9+ synthesizer engines on Kronos, the current system is inadequate and limiting. Some may find using PCG files OK, but with respect - not while doing music jobs for a living where you simply do not have the time demands that OASYS and Kronos require at that level - when used in an DAW / Media work type scenario. I'd respectfully suggest that Korg are simply not listening to the validity of that requirement; which I can only imagine is because of the technical demands to implement a better solution - your arguments do not hold up on such a sophisticated instrument as Kronos – at least in media type work scenarios where, as said, rapid and fine grain organisation over many, many programs and program changes, all trackable, are the norm. This is not a gripe - I'm totally in earnest on this, from experience.

I accept with the seamless transition of live sets that latency may be an issue on the Kronos, but that could be flagged in any system that offers an alternative, more sophisticated system to access programs from SSD or DAW integration software.

I'll again qualify my remarks here by saying that Korg is FAR better in this regard than the other main contenders - its HD file system is quite robust - but from hard earned experience on OASYS - both OASYS and Kronos are sophisticated enough to find themselves used in scenarios that require soft-synth / plugin level of program access and management - for real world scenarios. And Dan – I’m speaking from hard earned, hair raising experience where with OASYS, massive demands have been put on me where tracking programs, and even loosing them (by wiping accidently in the heat of the moment) – just become too frequent; but which never arises with soft synths.

I’d also point out that, since the Prophet 5 on – THE issue that stops people from programming and exploring a synth is lack of storage space. Once program slots are filled up with favourites – whether or not they can be backed up – people stop exploring and programming. This is well documented. So with the gargantuan synthesis under the hood, Korg are placing an arbitrary limit on how people feel they can reasonably explore the instrument – and it’s quite limiting – as in – essentially nobody programmed the OASYS – at least beyond tweaking – almost no sound set were released for it – and I expect the same for Kronos because it does not engender programming because there’s nowhere to store the fruits of such exploration.

In summary, I strongly recommend that Korg look seriously at how to offer a far more contemporary and flexible program and combi storage system appropriate to the scale and depth of Kronos. The current system is wholly inadequate in all real world and practical scenarios. And again - this is not an issue unique to Korg. If hardware companies want people to warm to hardware, they has better respond to the higher level norms of 'bread and butter' requirements shown to be better on software - but implementable - on current hardware systems.

We're talking basic Library management here - it's not rocket science.

Kevin.

[michelkeijzers]

I agree with Kevin in most parts.

I tend to search for available sounds by iterating through the available programs. I know this can also be done by disk mode, but this is not really possible with combis.

Also, I don't think there's a physical reason why it's not possible. By changing some screens supporting more banks and some 100MB or so bigger SSD space for extra banks it would be ok. And some buttons should not show U-A to U-G but U-A to U-Z ... or as written in my post a little higher: U-A to U-G, V-A to V-G to X-A to X-G creating 4 times as many banks.

[irtehyar]

It would be kewl if they just decided to double the number of banks. That way they could still use the bank select buttons to do it. Example: Hit U-F once it lights up and you're in U-F. Hit it again, it switches to flashy mode (like REC for track arming buttons) and you're in U-M. This way you still have the hard buttons and the indicator is useful, without having hardware changes.

Cmon, Korg - I saw the magic you pulled on the M3 with a simple software update (Xpanded). I know you can do this.

[michelkeijzers]

It would be kewl if they just decided to double the number of banks. That way they could still use the bank select buttons to do it. Example: Hit U-F once it lights up and you're in U-F. Hit it again, it switches to flashy mode (like REC for track arming buttons) and you're in U-M. This way you still have the hard buttons and the indicator is useful, without having hardware changes.

Cmon, Korg - I saw the magic you pulled on the M3 with a simple software update (Xpanded). I know you can do this.

It's more than just this change as I wrote before (I suggested multiple banks, not like 2, but 4 or even more). Also UI pages need to be changed (tough not that much differently). More SSD space is needed (don't know how flexible the internal PCG structure in the Kronos is) and the PCG structure itself; also the editor which is not released need to be changed (read: delayed). However, I don't mind all of this; I rather wait a bit more for a better system.

[BasariStudios]

As others have also suggested, I save and load PCG files on disk. Typically I use one per project. It's easy and fast.

- Dan

I am sorry Dan but you are still wrong. I am not a beginer with Synths and
i know EXACTLY how Korg's concept works. I am a third party develloper,
my Customers want to have all of their Factory Stuff plus my Sounds.
In the Combi i will probably use both, HD-1 and EXi...now what???
As i said, please no workarounds, just cut straight to the point...as we did on
M3, Triton e tc...

[Shakil]

Actually it is very easy for KORG to solve this issue. Just leave only one or two empty banks for users. Do not preload all the banks. And then users will have only 2 banks for custom programs.

I am sorry, but I do not see what is the problem here. We get the most amount of program and combination memory locations among all workstations, and all of them are user writeable. Plus you can have unlimited number of program on disk. You can audition unlimited number of programs without loading a PCG. If you like a program then, just load it to an empty slot.