New Roland Fantom O!

[Biggles]

What is not to like in the Fantom 0

Great sounds, a much better keyboard than Korg’s offerings, plenty of actual knobs to adjust live if needed and for me the big one SLIDERS, a terrible omission on the Nautilus, I hate onscreen sliders.

Check this out... Maybe it will change your mind (as far as not having sliders/faders...)

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Yeah seen that before, just not interested in bolting on a third party product that imo looks cr4p onto a £2000 keyboard.

Korg must have known that they were going to drop the Kronos so why did they not put proper sliders on the Nautilus?

[fomalhaut]

It's all product cycles going down. The Kronos is the last king of its heritage, the Nautilus being its uncrowned heir.

I believe that the Kronos obliterated the competition on its day and at least Roland went to the drawing board and is now ramping up its product cycle with what seems to be modern features (Zen Core, non-linear sequencing...). These FA-0 workthings look impressive to me and seem like a lot of fun. If they put a great keybed in the 88 version...

The Nautilus gives Korg some air to catch up.

It's your move Yamaha, how will you squeeze the Montage platform?

[fomalhaut]

f they put a great keybed in the 88 version...

It's the good ole PHA4. Understandable given the price point but I'm not a fan of it.

[jimknopf]

It's all product cycles going down. The Kronos is the last king of its heritage, the Nautilus being its uncrowned heir. ...

Nautilus the "uncrowned heir" of the Kronos?
... rather the retarded cousin, with no chance to wear a crown, ever ...

Using something as powerful as the Kronos after extremist crippling of it's UI functionality, that doesn't really make much sense. The Nautilus is just a misconception, which will be forgotten soon, like the Jupiter 80 with its stupid organ registration was back then: they both have a nice place in the "Neverland of synths nobody needs" IMO.

I'm no fan of Roland's "super natural" EP engine, and think it's B3 emulation with the present Leslie modeling is even worse, as many of the older Fantom bread and butter sounds do sound a bit cheap and oudated to me.

But the Fantom 0s surface offer everything you need for studio and live use, and many of the emulated Roland VA synth sounds, which I also use in my Jupiter Xm, do sound pretty well. And you get that great user interface, plus lots of sound possibilities, at 1700€ for a Fantom 07! If Korg has nothing better on offer, than the crippeld surface Nautilus concept, they will fall back behind Kurzweil's 2700, Roland's Fantoms and Yamaha's Montage to fourth place in no time.

Korg has to show something significant fast, if they don't want to throw away all the credit, which the former management has achieved with the Kronos concept, as powerful all-purpose synth/workstation, being the benchmark for the synth workstation market for a decade.

[Koekepan]

Korg has to show something significant fast, if they don't want to throw away all the credit, which the former management has achieved with the Kronos concept, as powerful all-purpose synth/workstation, being the benchmark for the synth workstation market for a decade.

KORG could at least make a credible first step if they produced a competent, dedicated studio master and sequencer. No sound engine, just a MIDI/USB/CV sequencer so that one could drive their (quite tasty) synths. This would go a long way to driving a decomposed workstation concept, in which they could also sell a dedicated recorder with mastering options. At least a credible range of related products that talk to each other well would be a landmark, along the lines of what Roland's AIRA could have been. If they could do a recorder/mixer for $500, and a sequencer/studiomaster for $500, it would be roughly in line with market rates. Add some MIDI-capable outboard effects units (for the automation possibilities) and you're off to quite a design. Use USB-C as the standard, and you'd have plenty of bandwidth for digital audio alongside MIDI.

But they don't seem to be doing that, either.

[apex]

It's all product cycles going down. The Kronos is the last king of its heritage, the Nautilus being its uncrowned heir. ...

Nautilus the "uncrowned heir" of the Kronos?
... rather the retarded cousin, with no chance to wear a crown, ever ...

Using something as powerful as the Kronos after extremist crippling of it's UI functionality, that doesn't really make much sense. The Nautilus is just a misconception, which will be forgotten soon, like the Jupiter 80 with its stupid organ registration was back then: they both have a nice place in the "Neverland of synths nobody needs" IMO.

I'm no fan of Roland's "super natural" EP engine, and think it's B3 emulation with the present Leslie modeling is even worse, as many of the older Fantom bread and butter sounds do sound a bit cheap and oudated to me.

But the Fantom 0s surface offer everything you need for studio and live use, and many of the emulated Roland VA synth sounds, which I also use in my Jupiter Xm, do sound pretty well. And you get that great user interface, plus lots of sound possibilities, at 1700€ for a Fantom 07! If Korg has nothing better on offer, than the crippeld surface Nautilus concept, they will fall back behind Kurzweil's 2700, Roland's Fantoms and Yamaha's Montage to fourth place in no time.

Korg has to show something significant fast, if they don't want to throw away all the credit, which the former management has achieved with the Kronos concept, as powerful all-purpose synth/workstation, being the benchmark for the synth workstation market for a decade.

Sorry Jim (what's up by the way, long time no see)

But you are out of your mind BRO>.... about the Roland Jupiter 80. That thing will go in the books as a legend. People didn't realize what Roland had laid on the table for them.... (Integra is another one of the same types of pieces of gear)

Jupiter will be a legend ... prices shot up even before COVID because they were /are just rare.... Jupiter is pretty up there as far as modern day classics.

I just don't personally see what/or why there is such a bad vibe in the air for the Nautilus... that's crazy. I'm not saying it's perfect or even that it has everything that I'd want in a keyboard... but for what it is and what it offers, it's a great option. Nothing wrong... just some things that could be better. But does what it does, well.

[apex]

Korg has to show something significant fast, if they don't want to throw away all the credit, which the former management has achieved with the Kronos concept, as powerful all-purpose synth/workstation, being the benchmark for the synth workstation market for a decade.

KORG could at least make a credible first step if they produced a competent, dedicated studio master and sequencer. No sound engine, just a MIDI/USB/CV sequencer so that one could drive their (quite tasty) synths. This would go a long way to driving a decomposed workstation concept, in which they could also sell a dedicated recorder with mastering options. At least a credible range of related products that talk to each other well would be a landmark, along the lines of what Roland's AIRA could have been. If they could do a recorder/mixer for $500, and a sequencer/studiomaster for $500, it would be roughly in line with market rates. Add some MIDI-capable outboard effects units (for the automation possibilities) and you're off to quite a design. Use USB-C as the standard, and you'd have plenty of bandwidth for digital audio alongside MIDI.

But they don't seem to be doing that, either.

Not sure I see a need for that at all though...

You saying Korg should make a midi controller? And a sequencer?

For that same 1000$ you could just buy say.... And m3. If you like the sequencer. Per se. It's as an inexpensive option as you can find with the amount of options it has ....

The sequencer, faders, karma, touch screen, nice keybed, vector control, USB interfacing with a computer....

And just connect all your mid devices up and let it control them.
.and you can get it in an 88,73, or 61.

Lol. Would that work?

But for real, there are so many midi controller keyboards out there that it's seriously crazy. And I guess the other thing would be like a digital recorder???!..... Not sure how that would go man..

[Koekepan]

Good questions, but I think I should step back and explain where I'm coming from here, to put it all in context.

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that it's in KORG's interest to have a showcase, marketing halo product or product family that stakes out a peak that their customers and competitors all admire, and aspire to. For years, that was the Kronos; it sounds great, it has a very capable set of controls, it has great sound engines, it's the whole package in one container. That's a halo product.

They've given up on the Kronos, and their Nautilus simply isn't in the same ballpark. Engines that were mind-blowing ten years ago are now just a solid offering. If you buy an MPC today, you get a selection of engines that sound really great, including electric piano, virtual analogue, and more. You can get that for under $1,000 MSRP, straight off the shelf with a smile at the checkout. The Nautilus is no longer a cutting-edge controller tool, so any peak that the Kronos once occupied is now vacated.

So, what now?

The first option would naturally to bring more of the same heat, and replace the Kronos with MegaKron, giving us twenty sound engines that produce 32 bit/192KHz output, direct mastering to SDcard, a keybed with polyphonic aftertouch, release velocity, faders and knobs and pads and touchstrips and wheels and joysticks and eight independent surround sound optical outputs and more and more and more like a demented infomercial show.

The second option, and the one at which I was hinting, was a decomposed workstation in the sense that rather than having it all in one box, it's a set of products that work together well in the interests of providing a composer/producer with a coherent studio/workstation from which one can select pieces and parts that make up the bits about which one cares.

Thus, some sort of list might include a central sequencer, a hot controller, a solid multitrack recorder/mixing/mastering station, a polytimbral sound module, a multichannel sound effects module and so on. All together, they'd make up a kick-ass workstation, but you'd buy the bits that you'd want. This could be a branded range of items analogous to Roland's AIRA range, but on a more serious basis.

Does this make more sense to you, at least as a coherent concept?

[Biggles]

It is not just the Kronos.

For years the Korg Pa4X was the pinnacle in the arranger market.

Then came the Yamaha Genos.

The Korg Pa 700 & 900 arrangers were better than the Yamaha PSR S series, then came the SX series.

So with four Yamaha top end models in the last three years & zero from Korg, goodness knows where Korg are going in this market sector.

Then Roland release the 0 series which seems to blow the Nautilus away, it would certainly get my cash if I was after a new workstation..

[Narioso]

The second option, and the one at which I was hinting, was a decomposed workstation in the sense that rather than having it all in one box, it's a set of products that work together well in the interests of providing a composer/producer with a coherent studio/workstation from which one can select pieces and parts that make up the bits about which one cares.

Thus, some sort of list might include a central sequencer, a hot controller, a solid multitrack recorder/mixing/mastering station, a polytimbral sound module, a multichannel sound effects module and so on. All together, they'd make up a kick-ass workstation, but you'd buy the bits that you'd want. This could be a branded range of items analogous to Roland's AIRA range, but on a more serious basis.

Does this make more sense to you, at least as a coherent concept?

It does to me!!!

Have a look at Akai MPC X as sequencer/recorder. Really nice 10.5" display and smooth as anything. Many, many midi ports and if it was 256 midi tracks. Just 8 audio tracks, and haven't had hands on yet if you can mix incoming 4 audio plus 8 tracks internally at the same time, but am to check that out.

Also looked at Tascam Model 12, 16 and 24 - but audio only. Model 12 actually has midi sync with clock or mtc. Only thing I missed was automation internally and larger display to really spend the hours. Electronics and preamps are way better than their DP-series portastudios.

Then pick and choose other instruments that serve you well.

[Koekepan]

That's pretty much how my desk is currently organised right now. Kross next to the desk as a controller and occasional sound source, Akai Force on the desk next to a DP-32SD (which, to do it credit, sounds pretty darned good), and also a USB audio interface for the Force to get it more audio I/O.

The MIDI integration doesn't matter much for the Tascam the way that I use it, but you can work around it anyway by adding a start click on each track, which then serves as a timing guideline.

I just think that KORG could take each of these parts, make them best-in-class, and add integration between them along the lines of a single cable such as IEEE1394 (FireWire) to conveniently string a studio together in one family. That would be one hell of a halo product.

[Akihabara]

Many of us have been waiting for KORG to step up to the line again; across the majority of the ranges and areas you're talking about.

Back in the Triton Ex/Kronos transition era - I saw the brand everywhere. And rightly so. It hit hard and was exactly the 'halo' you suggest. That's no different in Asia on the stage as it was in the west.

Then the product lines all shifted. Nothing unusual there. Everything advances. The companies compete. Slowly all the Korg vanished. Stages were predominantly Yamaha (I was the one setting them up for the artists). And whilst Kronos still popped in; between the plethora of other gigging options and preferences - as well as it always being a 'bit of a mixed brand bag' anyway; It's hard to say otherwise now.

Korg just doesn't have an edge. Sure the products sell. But most of it will continually gloss over the flaws in Nautilus (comparatively vs cost) and other products. Be it 'cutting corners on key beds'. 'Too few octaves'. 'Only for the casual bedroom artist now'. We could go on and on.

Over time more and more people just move on. Whilst in the past; they may have dipped into the odd other brand/plug the gap - they had no real reason to look elsewhere consistently.

Now, it's been over a decade. The supposed King is outdated (although yes still workable). People wonder if for the price vs the rising power of other platforms - are workstations dead?

Hopefully not. People do still love hardware. But the cost vs longevity. It's not what it was. A cool 4-5 or even 6 grand for a fleet leader. When the forums will laugh and tell the person they could get the same with a better UI from a laptop and software. Isn't going to inspire confidence. Key bed? Everyones always promoting how the beds are nigh worthless - and how every brand does it better with some form of controller.

The Hydrasynth boom has everyone asking, 'who did they sell that PolyAT too?'. As people start to ask; aren't all my KORG's just imminently replaceable with something else. I think they've already lost a lot of good graces with many.

Sure enough the trifecta of mini-synths has supposedly sold to the point the SE's made the news. But it's silence all around. By the time KORG address the issue; the other companies will be preparing their own next generation. Thats obvious. But these windows are tight. If it continues with such huge time gaps - Korg simply won't exist in a good many areas. Perhaps they have a new market in mind now. It's really just hard to tell. They ignore every question I ask of them. From large to small. And whilst thats understandable - people were asking about Kronos refresh as far back as Luke demo'ing the Prologue. 2018? I think on some sites. It's 2022 already.

[Koekepan]

Akihabara, I agree with everything you've just said, but I think that I see one more possible factor at play.

If you look at (for example) the Kronos, it was always a really solid performance keyboard with amazing sounds, a very usable keybed, plenty of controls and a wide range of internal effects. You could walk onto any stage and use it, and sound good. With added tools such as Karma, you could make a performance shine.

On the other hand, the Kronos was always just a tiny bit off the mark for studio production, because unless you wanted to use their poor event editor, you really found yourself up against the wall in terms of editing. There was no piano roll. You could play in, and record your performance. You could do things around step sequencing and arpeggiation to get a performance in, but for planning and creating a thing like a fugue it was never a great choice. They didn't even convert the event editor into a tracker interface, which would still have been better.

The Krome is in that sense actually a better pick simply because of its pianoroll.

Both of those keyboards are now old, and Nautilus does nothing whatsoever to improve the composition and studio production end. The market for this function has almost entirely been left for the MPC, Force and of course Maschine+ team (although Maschine+ is looking more and more like the poor cousin here). The big three seem to assume that it's all about the DAW now, and as confirmation of that we have Gadget as KORG's current best means of converting an idea into a detailed composition.

I surmise therefore that KORG (and similarly Yamaha and Roland) are happy to sell tools to populate a studio, but aren't aiming to actually run one, unlike Akai Professional or (to a lesser extent) Native Instruments. If so, we should expect to see more discrete parts, which is why I still see the possibility of a halo family of devices that work together really well to be a true workstation in decomposed form.

[Narioso]

.... If so, we should expect to see more discrete parts, which is why I still see the possibility of a halo family of devices that work together really well to be a true workstation in decomposed form.

Or create a well designed clamp on system to have any number of modules on top of your workstation/master keyboard.

Something like some laptop stands you see for multi tier stands and such.

That you can just clamp on at any angle around your master keyboard without the need for occupying from floor up.

The obvious as I saw on new Roland 0-series Fantom - hdmi output I assume for a larger screen of choice.

Build your controlpanel boards around you with units you pick. There is always a risk that whatever choice they throw into a new workstation will not be everybodies cup of tea. The CX-3 does not stand the test towards Hammond, the pianos does not stand the test to Kawai etc.

Minilogue XD module with real analog, or the Prologue or successor whatever it will be. The workstation is bound to be digital.

[Broadwave]

The obvious as I saw on new Roland 0-series Fantom - hdmi output I assume for a larger screen of choice.

Not sure where you got that info from, but there's no HDMI output on the 0 series, so no connection to a larger screen.