Again,NO M.O.S.S.

[jemkeys25]

burning busch 's example sounded very nice, that was an oasys?

[peter_schwartz]

jem, thanks for your reply on MOSS.

As far as brass sounds go, I'm not going to offer a comment one way or another on the K's brass sounds. I do want to offer a different perspective tho...

I read so much on forums that show a lot of "black and white thinking" like "this vs. that" or "Kronos brass -- is it good or bad?" And it's not like my mind is so über-reasonable that I don't fall into the same trap sometimes. But when it comes to samples, if there's one thing I've learned over the years is that there are no "bad samples". There is only "the right context" or "the wrong context". OK, I'll backpedal a little bit and say that there are some pretty lousy commercially available samples, meaning, bad sound quality or bad performances of the sounds. And even on the physical modeling end of things (e.g., a piano plugin that's been mentioned here a lot, but there are also other PM instruments) a lot of their sounds are less-than-convincing. But still, these plugins and samples sell, so you have to wonder "why?"

The answers can be anything from "it's cheap" or "it'll do" or "I LOVE this sound!". And that goes to show that some people will be pleased as punch with the stuff you think is pure dreck (a wonderful little Yiddish word meaning "s**t").

When it comes to any sound, whether it sounds good, bad, passable, "just OK", or whatever, has everything to do with the CONTEXT it's being used in, and, the way it's played.

There was a keyboard player on the NY session scene many years ago who knew nothing about synthesis but was an unbelievably fine player. He'd be called in to play synth parts, and was legendary at being able to make ANY sound sound good. Even the lamest of synth presets. Why was he a legend? Because he know how to make the best of any sound. Context, and of course, talent.

So one guy may say, "yeah, the brass sample in the Koronos suck". Yeah, but in what context? Doing orchestral simulations? Funk band? Etc. And what exactly are you playing with those sounds? I'll tell ya one thing... if you're trying to play a brass sound with all fingers of both paws all the time, then just forget it; even the "best" brass samples will be reduced to sounding cheesy.

And then there's the audience... Will an audience at a gig appreciate that a keyboard player is playing a live brass section-type sound that wasn't entirely realistic-sounding, or, would the feel that the music they're hearing is a little bit disingenuous because the amazing-sounding, realistic brass sounds that the keyboard player is playing are obviously fake?

So really, there is no "good or bad", is there? There are opinions, and there is context. And I'd like to think that there's a lot more room for people to be open-minded rather than put everything into "yes" and "no" categories based on little more than a single opinion.

Just an opinion, FWIW, my 2-cents, YMMV, and all that...

[Synthoid]

So really, there is no "good or bad", is there? There are opinions, and there is context. And I'd like to think that there's a lot more room for people to be open-minded rather than put everything into "yes" and "no" categories based on little more than a single opinion.

Just an opinion, FWIW, my 2-cents, YMMV, and all that...

+1

Well put.

[jemkeys25]

hey pete, thats right, everything is subjective to each persons opinion, and sound is no different, for me i found that the pure synth aspect of moss lent itself better to musical expression, sort of like a rompler with a sound called " DX rhoades" that plays nothing like a real DX7, but more mimicks the sound, but doesn't quite get the expression, that feel, right.

I've said before, I'm a bigger fan of pure synthesis, than romplers.

[Dave Ferris]

I'm not looking for expert status but this is the trumpet sound I get live: breath controller and SampleModeling Trumpet.

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/mp3/TrpSM.mp3

As always, excellent Busch !

You might not be looking for "expert status" but like it or not, few people on the net have your knowledge and expertise in this area.

Also thanks JimKnopf for the "Ingcognito" link. Wasn't hip to them at all. Some great stuff.

[Lando]

I'm not looking for expert status but this is the trumpet sound I get live: breath controller and SampleModeling Trumpet.

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/mp3/TrpSM.mp3

Yay, that sounded great, props to you!

[ozy]

Ozy, if I understood Stephen right, any mp3 example, of any great pop brass, on any workstation of your choice, will do and make the Kronos designers feel terribly embarrased and ashamed.

No, I want a musical piece produced by you, showing your expertise at picking, incorporating, and using pop brass samples, such that everyone here should take one man's opinion on the quality of the Kronos pop brass. Pretty simple.

Otherwise, it's just one man's opinion - and I wouldn't make assumptions about the quality of various sounds based on one man's opinion. Wait and try it yourself. Just sayin'.

next time I go into recording studio, I'll do a 30 seconds "internettable" snippet of brasses, Sir.

I will have it dutifully cut, exported, translated, whatever it takes (I have not the faintest idea), and posted somewhere (is it possible to post sounds here?).

Since it will be live, not sequenced (and that's the important part: LIVE playable brasses and winds. Not fancy sequenced articulation using 6 partes to play ONE instrument because they can't do vibrato AND fall on the same sample), do you request any specific piece of music, Sir?

(BTW: the pc3 will have nothing to do with it. analogue+VL is the only way to go for brass+wind).

It will be two or three hours (record, cut ulpoad etc), well spent for the sake of...

... for the sake of...

... what is it again?...

oh, yes...

... for the sake of getting your f*ck*ng permission of deciding myself which synthesizer I like or not.

Let me know if "tuxed junction" or "carnavalito" or "american patrol" or whatever is better for you,

Sir.

[robinkle]

Stephen, you find me confused.

Do you think it is no problem for a keyboarder to play convincing 'real-brass' riffs live on a (any) workstation keyboard?

I won't say it's "no problem", but within the context of a live band, it can be done. I think if you play the parts straight with a decent sound, played with proper brass voicings, and don't try to get all fancy with falls and shakes etc., it can come off quite well and full-fill the needs for the part. Do I think one keyboard player could pull off a full Tower Of Power bass section solo and make it sound the same? No - maybe a few keyboard players.

Seriously, I wasn't really jumping into this discussion to pimp the Kronos, although I just played through the Kronos brass sounds and I thought there were some very nice, useful ensemble brass sounds in there that would sound perfectly fine inside a tune or mix. I wouldn't say they suck. I merely disliked seeing another member say "well, we've heard that the Kronos brass sounds aren't very good" when it was only an opinion from one person whose credentials are not really known. That's all. Instead of repeating some other one person's opinion, make up your own mind when you get a chance to play and hear in person. And the bottom line is, what may suck for one person might be perfectly fine or great for another person.

Are there some nice Karma infected Brass sounds on the Kronos, Steven? To me, the hardest part is to get the right expression. Can Karma help out?

[StephenKay]

next time I go into recording studio, I'll do a 30 seconds "internettable" snippet of brasses, Sir.

I will have it dutifully cut, exported, translated, whatever it takes (I have not the faintest idea), and posted somewhere (is it possible to post sounds here?).

Since it will be live, not sequenced (and that's the important part: LIVE playable brasses and winds. Not fancy sequenced articulation using 6 partes to play ONE instrument because they can't do vibrato AND fall on the same sample), do you request any specific piece of music, Sir?

(BTW: the pc3 will have nothing to do with it. analogue+VL is the only way to go for brass+wind).

It will be two or three hours (record, cut ulpoad etc), well spent for the sake of...

Jeez, don't you have a DAW?

... for the sake of...

... what is it again?...

oh, yes...

... for the sake of getting your f*ck*ng permission of deciding myself which synthesizer I like or not.

Just like you to twist the discussion. I don't care which synth you like. You're the one who has set yourself up as being "so effing knowledgable" - I just wanted to hear some proof.

[synthguy]

I like ozy's attitude...

Very, very far away from me!

But seriously, I have to side heavily, extensively, and completely with peter. I have an old Ensoniq SD-1, and compared to any synth you guys would have on hand, it's a dinosaur. It uses a mix of 16- and 12-bit samples! And because of the skimpy 3.5MB wave rom, most of those samples were pretty cheezy. Especially much of the brass.

However, you wouldn't know it from a demo sequence of a big band tune someone at Ensoniq did for it. It sounds freaking incredible. The reason is that, as peter says, the patches weren't played like keyboard instruments, but were orchestrated properly. Even Jordan Rudess doing brass parts live has trouble not making them sound a little cheezy, because it's evidently pretty hard to break the piano player habit.

Besides, unless you're really good, doing brass from a keyboard live isn't going to work spectacularly, no matter how good the samples. But if you're good enough, even limp brass will come out right. I have a feeling, having an M3 with pretty darn good brass samples, that KRONOS will be just fine.

Yeah, I wish KORG would add in a MOSS instrument a la the Z1. But if they don't, I do have my Karma with its MOSS board, so I'm covered for six notes worth.

[EXer]

[...]
Besides, unless you're really good, doing brass from a keyboard live isn't going to work spectacularly, no matter how good the samples. But if you're good enough, even limp brass will come out right.
[...]

As a saxophone *and* kb player, I can say that the most important is not the sound itself, but how the instrument responds to the way the musician is playing.

So, however good the samples or the keyboard player, no one will *never* be able to play a sampled reed or brass instrument in a convincing (i.e. expressive just like the real thing) way with a keyboard.

The only way to play a reed or brass instrument, other than a real instrument, in a convincing way is to use a physical model and a wind controller.

Personnally, I use a WX5 with the VL engine in my EX5; it's the same engine as the VL-70m, which has imo much better reed and brass models than MOSS.

Of course, here I'm speaking of a solo instrument and of an audience who is aware of what a wind instrument sounds like; an average audience listening to a brass/reed instrument swamped in a mix won't be able to tell the difference...

[cello]

This whole discussion reminds of a regular situation I find myself in...

Each week I go to hear my wife play in the orchestra, along with around 2,800 others. At the end of the concert, I wait for my wife at the stage door.

I've known most of the players for 10 years or more so they usually come up to me and chat. Each week it's the same format (although entirely unpredictable!) - they ask me what I thought of the concert. Then one might say to me "god wasn't that awful?" or "If I see that conductor again I'll kill myself - he was terrible" then I'll speak to someone else and they will say "wow wasn't that amazing - had goosebumps all the way through" or "that conductor is the most inspiring man alive".

Now this is the same concert these professionals were at. Their professional opinions are diametrically opposed. Why? Good music is good music, right?

Well, apparently not. The conclusion I've come to after thinking long and hard is that at any moment in time we bring different circumstances to our music, be it for listening pleasure or for our own performing enjoyment. Those circumstances drive how receptive we are to music.

Going back on topic, it's the same with sounds - it's not black and white and no-one is right or wrong. It's simply how it strikes you given your 'circumstantial' subjectivety.

A lot of you here love organs like CX3 and talk about hammond's and leslie's, etc. Biggest waste of electronic engineering in my view. Would rather listen to a constipated emu. I am of course not right. But I'm also not wrong.

Purely subjective. So there will be brass and there will be brass - and then there's real brass. For the last 5 or so years I promote an 18 piece swing band made of classical and jazz orchestra members. You know what? Sometime real brass sounds worse than some keyboard brass I've heard!

But then again, if you want the best brass, hire a trumpeter or bonist.

[Lando]

Cello, that is so true, there isn't just "brass" there are players, and sections, and orchestras and everyone sounds different.

[ozy]

Jeez, don't you have a DAW?

no.

At my personal studio I just use a plain HD recorder for quick takes of improvisation, for listening back and transcribing.

Why should I use a daw? I train for live performance, record once every two or three years. Am not in the business of posting "challenge demos" on the interweb. So why using a daw?

The recording studio has all the DAWs and the frills and bells and whistles,

ASAP will post... how do you call it ... "proof"

(proof of what, BTW? That 7000 euros of physical modeling and another 4000 euros of real analogue played by a skilled musician can produce better, stronger and more articulated REALTIME NON-SEQUENCED brasses and winds than a mass-produced multipurpose rompler?

Seriously: you need proof of that? You don't know that already yourself?

Come on, be honest.

Your knowledge of the music hardware industry is not such, that you know that the Kronos brasses are "sub-par" by reference to more dedicated, one-trick-pony, technologies?

Seriously: honestly, you don't know that? You vouch for romplers producing good articulated brasses?

Whatever.

Proof follows as soon as I get a DAW at hand]

the most important is not the sound itself, but how the instrument responds to the way the musician is playing.
The only way to play a reed or brass instrument, other than a real instrument, in a convincing way is to use a physical model and a wind controller.
Of course, here I'm speaking of a solo instrument and of an audience who is aware of what a wind instrument sounds like; an average audience listening to a brass/reed instrument swamped in a mix won't be able to tell the difference...

amen.

I especially like the words "swamped", "average audience" and "unaware of what a brass instrument sounds like", because that's what the all discussion is about.

Try playing a "brass" chord on a rompler while a real saxophone is playing in the band. Shame will make you run for the exits, everybody in the room will tell you "switch to a hammond preset, please".

Sum VL and analogue?

Well, you can comp the real sax player with nice effect.

Anybody done a different experience? Anybody felt at ease dueling with a sax using a rompler?

Well' Id like to hear... how would mr Kay say?... I'd like to hear... "prooooof"

[EXer]

hire a [...] bonist.

Are there still bonists nowadays ?

Paleolithic flutes made out of bird bones:


Flute made out of a cavebear bone: