Behringer has a new synth

spaceman3 · Post by **spaceman3** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:20 pm

When i was briefly on facebook, i had a guy cuss me out because i dared to say
my MININOVA sounded as good as alot of the expensive analogue synths.

Post by **Sharp** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:33 pm

spaceman3 wrote:When i was briefly on facebook, i had a guy cuss me out because i dared to say
my MININOVA sounded as good as alot of the expensive analogue synths.

I'm working with 12 Mac users and I'm using Windows 10

Regards
Sharp.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:37 am

Unless these analog and digital items are played side by side I generally can't tell a big difference. I can virtually always tell the difference between vinyl/tape and cd. I still gravitate towards analogue just because I like it. I like the knobs sliders and presence it makes me feel. Love my Karp and can tell the difference between it and an original. Love my minitaur it has something i haven't been able to duplicate on the Kronos or in software. I had an analog Keys, a lot of fun but in the end I felt the Kronos filled my needs there and returned it. Who knows we all hear and perceive things differently, some is in our heads and some isn't in the end who cares. If someone makes a kit song using a dime store kids synth I will probably still like it and they will still make some cash. Have fun with whatever gear you want.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:51 am

Sharp wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:Except Virus is far from true analog. Come on, Sharp, don't mix apples and oranges.
True, but my ears can't tell the difference whatsoever. That's kind of what I'm getting at.

Regards
Sharp.

Sharp - your eras can tell the difference. Seek out a listen to the Theme from The Rockford Files. The synth line in that could only have been an analogue synth.

Or listen to the bass and piercing lead line in "Overture" from Jarre's Concerts in China - again - you need an analogue synth for that - the Virus wont achieve it.

Final examples - Himalaya by Vangelis on the album China - or - an ring modulation effects he uses on the album See You Later - or - the very opening of Blade Runner - all of these are only achievable, still, in analogue synths - and indeed most of them are only achievable with that finesse on analogue synths not computer controlled. For example, the Prophet 5 can't achieve many of those subtitles because of the quantisation of computer control - especially early computers in the likes of the P5.

The way I tend to view it is - the level of granularity in an analogue instrument is the electron. The level of granularity in a digital synth is the bit-depth of the buss/DAC.

So it is not a coincidence that a digital version of a CS80 doesn't exist - it still wouldn't be possible to achieve one in the digital domain - you could never provide the subtlety of expression of an analogue synth as complex performance wise as the CS80 in the digital domain - we're nowhere near that level of Algorithmic design or DSP capability.

Believe me - I own both analogue and digital synths of all kinds. They are all remarkable and widely useful - but - there is a real gulf in the subtlety of expression and range os sound creation on an analogue synth just not currently possible in the digital domain. We're getting there, and the likes of the Virus can achieve perhaps 80 % or so of it - but we're not there yet.

So - you can hear the difference - its in works you love. Perhaps you just aren't bothered that much - and I mean that in an earnest way - as in - not all things are for all people? But Bladerunner could not have been achieved without the best analogue synths and there is a place for them in the modern world - indeed there is a place for analogue synths with absolutely no computer control because it frees them to, as I said, a granularity at the electron level which leaves digital synths in their wake, subtlety of expression and breath of sound-design wise.

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:55 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote:Final examples.... the very opening of Blade Runner - all of these are only achievable, still, in analogue synths - and indeed most of them are only achievable with that finesse on analogue synths not computer controlled.

jazlover · Post by **jazlover** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:59 pm

Let it go guys.... Yes, we all have experience.... Yes, we all have opinions.... I started with a Mini Moog back in the day..... I can tell you that if you play live 99.99 % of the listeners .....CAN"T.....hear the difference and .....Don't care...... They barely listen to the musicianship most of the time. Analogs have plenty of negatives as well.... I am so glad we are not the same musically and with the gear we choose..... If you think analog is so great, show us non-believers that .....on your next album.... Let's all agree that we all have experience and we don't have to prove it on this forum..

Wow, and I thought I was the grumpy old man on this forum.

I feel like the husband talking to the nagging wife...."Let it go Wilma, let it go".

jazlover · Post by **jazlover** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:14 pm

Oh yeah, one other thing......

I'm working with 12 Mac users and I'm using Windows 10

Resistence is futile.....

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:09 pm

Timo wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:Final examples.... the very opening of Blade Runner - all of these are only achievable, still, in analogue synths - and indeed most of them are only achievable with that finesse on analogue synths not computer controlled.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/t7NIvwrjMpk?rel=0" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Not mine, but watch 2:00 onwards. All Virus TI, no external effects/processing. The phased (subtly detuned) lead isn't quite there, I'd've tweaked it a little more, but for a quick demo the rest of the sounds the guy programmed are mostly up to par, even without any external mixing/processing/eq.

Firstly - let me declare that I am biased - I'm addicted to Vangelis (essentially only listened to him and (TD, Jarre, Tomita) for the first 20 years of my musical life.

Secondly - as I often expound upon - I own and use a mint condition KSR restored CS80 (and also own and use the VP330). I also use other synthesizers, including many digital synth that I adore (love the SY77, JD800, NL2, OASYS, V-Synth GT), ....

So I'll not look to get into a deep debate on this, save to say the following:

1. You really do have to sit at a perfect CS80 passed though a Dimension D and exquisite Reverb and DDL to understand what I'm talking about. Listen to all of Himalaya - and its follow on piece Summit - on Vangelis' albun China - and listen to it analytically several time. The amount of subtle change and dynamism in the music is extraordinary - and - it really couldn't have been done without the exceptional performance capabilities of the CS80.

It is, honestly, extraordinary. To mention just some of many points you might check up on yourself: polyphonic aftertouch on many readily realtime changeable parameters; the 20 "performance levers" (not faders - levers - with inertia) above the keyboard, the extraordinary 5-control ring modulator and the pitch ribbon, dual channels with variable aftertouch and velocity on each channel's VCF and VCF modifiable in realtime, variable rate LFO via aftertouch, ..... I could go on and on. All I'll say is - it is a different performance experience to any other synthesizer I've ever encountered.

so - the point - the Virus is excellent - I don't own one but I do hope to because in my opinion it's the best all rounder VA with a fabulous set of features and wonderful sound. But - while you can painstakingly emulate bladerunner with it - you could never, ever, create bladerunner with it. That's the critical difference.

I'll also say that that emulation sounds, to me, pretty poor. It lacks much of the subtlety I'm on about. Sonically quite bright, full and fresh, but the performance is just not in it. But that's personal opinion.

I fully accept that the Kronos, V-Synth GT, Virus, NL, ... are all wonderful and deliver a plethora of features and capabilities not possible on analogue synths - but - when you play a Minimoog or CS80, and listen to the seminal tracks used by the best musicians to extract the best from them through the history of recorded music, it must be accepted that there are scenarios where they leave current digital synths standing ( as said - in many scenarios - not all - but many) - in terms of strength and character of sound, and in terms of performance capability. Digital synths are getting better all the time - and it's not only down to digital limitation, designers are just not designing performance instruments as Yamaha and others used to; so there's no reason to think the likes of the CS80 won't be surpassed in the future; but if Yamaha were to design a digital version of the CS80 now, they'd struggle to match the capabilities of the original (from a technological stand point using only digital electronics). Bladerunner needed the CS80 to happen. If Vangelis hadn't had access to that instrument, it would not have been possible for him to realise that score.

I plan not to continue with this debate as I realise it's been trashed to death a thousand times over.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:15 pm

jazlover wrote:Let it go guys.... Yes, we all have experience.... Yes, we all have opinions.... I started with a Mini Moog back in the day..... I can tell you that if you play live 99.99 % of the listeners .....CAN"T.....hear the difference and .....Don't care...... They barely listen to the musicianship most of the time. Analogs have plenty of negatives as well.... I am so glad we are not the same musically and with the gear we choose..... If you think analog is so great, show us non-believers that .....on your next album.... Let's all agree that we all have experience and we don't have to prove it on this forum..

Wow, and I thought I was the grumpy old man on this forum.

I feel like the husband talking to the nagging wife...."Let it go Wilma, let it go".

But the performer feels the difference - and communicates it to the listener. Why do the best violinists look for a Stradivarius?

I fundamentally disagree with your point. There are good instruments and bad instruments in all types of instruments - and the best musicians always look for the best instruments - without exception - because - it does matter. I t makes all the difference in the world.

(not saying digital are worse than analogue by the way - one of the best concerts I ever saw was Herbie Hancock - on his OASYS !!).

spaceman3 · Post by **spaceman3** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:09 pm

I should clarify that i am looking at this subject through the dollar bottom line of producing music.
I guess my point here is, If i tried to create a full demo with an analogue synth.
I would end up with some kind of milky limited type of album, or i could not even make a modern album because analogue synths can only do some leads, some basses, and some pads, and FX ,effectively that is.
I suppose if i was just a key player and not a producer/writer, i might see more appeal in them.
But i just dont like analogue synths.
They are expensive, musicaly limited, and non reliable things that break all to easy.
From my point of view they are status symbols.
I dont need one to make great music.
This is just my opinion on analogue synthesizers.
I will not comment on this subject any further.
Peace.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:37 pm

so which bit of the feature set of the CS80 is musically limited to you? - and - please - do answer that question.

But back on topic - have to say I'm intrigued by the Behringer synth because:

- Their quality has improved enormously of late

- They do aim for excellent feature sets at low prices

- They's been experimenting with this for several years so they have actually put quite a lot of effort into this

- It looks like a cross between a Minimoog and a Juno6 (intriguing to me!)

- There's a shortage of analogue monophonic synths on the market right now

spaceman3 · Post by **spaceman3** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:11 pm

YAMAHA cs80 is the one analogue synth i actually like.
But it has limittations.
It cannot emulate most real world instruments.
It only has 8 voice polyphony.
It will break down fast if you do not have a tech guy keeping it running.
It will drift out of tune.
No patch saving, layering or splits.
Outrageous price.
Weighs a ton.
No midi.
Large footprint.
Im sure if i had one, i would find other things i would not be happy about.
If i tried to produce an entire demo album of modern music, it would not cut the mustard.
Sure it would be great for basses, pads, leads, and wierd FX, but
would be an illogical thing for me to obtain.
i would have to sell my house to get one.
I am too frugal to do that.
Please, anyone reading my posts, know that i am not really against analogue synths.
If someone thinks analogue is better, then that will work for them.
It just doesnt work for me.
I just do not need an analogue synth for greatness, status, or success.
Sorry i commented on this subject when i said i wouldnt.
I just wanted to be clear about what i was saying.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:52 pm

What kind of demo would you want to do - and for whom - and what single synth would you use?

Could you ever envisage anyone doing a demo on, say, a flute?

aron · Post by **aron** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:34 pm

It's not right to say ALL analogs sound better than digital just because it's analog. There were plenty of crappy sounding "analog" synthesizers. It's like people don't remember how happy musicians were to get RID of the darn things. Out of tune, limited sounds, problems with stability etc....

The truth is a lot of the VA sound fine - more than good enough to sound "analog". Of course if you nitpick, you can hear that some VA step and even alias - but they can still sound more than good enough.

As far as modding - take a look at the micro moog or sequential Pro One, then take a look at standard guitar pedals. There are so many similarities that you can directly apply the mods to the analog boards.

jazlover · Post by **jazlover** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:47 am

I fundamentally disagree with your point. There are good instruments and bad instruments in all types of instruments - and the best musicians always look for the best instruments - without exception - because - it does matter. I t makes all the difference in the world.

My point was never about playing the best instrument. It was about our perception of what is the best instrument. You actually made my point with your last sentence. If Herbie Hancock is happy with Oasys sound {now a Kronos} (and he surely must be happy)... his perception is all that matters. The Kronos and a Virus are awesome... but to the cosmic question.... Does Kevin think their awesome?.... Is a waste of time once you have expressed your valued opinion.... Your views no matter how experienced... and no matter how knowledgable technically....Will Always Take A Back Seat....Behind What Makes Another Musician's Ears Happy.... So all analog lovers ...spare us the rooster strut ...crowing "mine is bigger and better ".... (bigger sound that is

)....Those that feel some sort of superiority with their analogs ought to form private exclusive clubs and create secret handshakes that they can use when they are not patting each other on the back.