New Korg PA3XLe

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Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

DonM wrote:Yet, Roland continues to require us to use two button pushes to select and play intros and endings, unless the style variation just happens to be on the correct one. ADD FOUR MORE BUTTONS!
DonM
Buttons take up a lot of front panel real estate, or need to be quite small to fit everything possible in. TBH, how is any of this different from Korg, who require you (until the last OS) to hit a fill and then hit the Variation you want to go to?

Sure, you gain a hair of flexibility in fill choice, but let's face it, most fills really only work in one direction.

Personally, I like simplicity of layout and logical auto-decisions over ultimate flexibility, tied to a confusing button-loaded front panel. But that's just me... :wink:

I just consider two button presses like a chord or interval. Pretty easy to hit the Ending button and the number button, given there's only four big ones to choose from!

Korg take 15 buttons to do what Roland do with 6. And Roland has two more fills, and one more Intro and one more Ending. Put me down for panel simplicity!
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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

how is any of this different from Korg, who require you (until the last OS) to hit a fill and then hit the Variation you want to go to?
Don't know what you mean here - I use the FILL - to VAR features and options since PA1Xpro days :?
You either configure the PA to go to the VAR you want or hit the two buttons - can't see what the alternative is - the PA can't "guess" it ????

Pete :D
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Styleplay-buttons for flexibility

Post by siebenhirter »

Dikikeys wrote: I just consider two button presses like a chord or interval. .. Sure, you gain a hair of flexibility in fill choice
To press two buttons for a function is not the same "like a chord or interval", each movement from your black-white-keys to panel-buttons maybe a critical interruption of a performance. Also for profis it is better to hit one button instead of two different buttons and that is something more than a hair of flexibility.
*
Dikikeys wrote:.. most fills really only work in one direction
Fills really only work in one manner and direction in poorlier equipped stylesystems and this differ from Korgs Cue-Mode and Fill-Mode, suitabe to expand flexibility of Fills as much as possible.
*
Dikikeys wrote: I like simplicity of layout and logical auto-decisions over ultimate flexibility
It is no question to decide autodecision or flexibility, as flexibility means also to include auto-options, whereas auto-functions does not include individual options to be flexible. To save one button with them loosing flexibility is no good choice.
*
Dikikeys wrote: .. tied to a confusing button-loaded front panel
To reduce button-loaded panels maybe possible with buttons for editing, but not for buttons used for essential and important functions to get more flexibility during performance.
Buttons proper and clear arranged should prevent confusion - would be a good idea if functions would not be fixed to labels of buttons but should be customizeable.
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

No offense, but what do you say about the need to press TWO buttons to get the Chord Sequencer to work? Roland do it with one...

Try not to get to worked up about mild criticisms of arranger design. Trust me, I've found as much I'd like to see improved on Roland's (a lot more, if the truth be told!) as I have on Korg's! It's hard to 'defend' a perceived superiority for ONE feature, if they go and break that 'superiority' on another!

My main thing about all the independent buttons on the Korg is, as I said... Roland do the same thing (and more) with less than half the buttons. Yes, most people tend to use the Auto-Fill mode, but try to bring that up and those that want to do non-consecutive fills will go ballistic about that, or the fill loop feature. Again, something I honestly never have considered using... if I want a fill twice in a row, I simply press the Fill button or F/S (I tend to do all my selection stuff with my feet anyway, as I see no reason to stop playing to do something a F/S can do!) as many times as I want it.

So, 15 buttons to do something that MOST Roland users (except those that have got used to a far more complicated system on something else!) find no problem at all with six. Arranger users tend to fall into two camps... Operational simplicity, and operational flexibility. Put me firmly in the first. I can, without mistake or discomfort, get any of the Roland's Divisions with the six buttons they provide. So, naturally, I see little need for 15 to do LESS...

I don't see what the problem is... if you guys can work TWO buttons to record and play your Chord Sequencer, you can do it with the Intro/Endings. You've only got USED to the button heavy method. Should Korg change to something like the Roland system, you'll get used to THAT, too!

It certainly helps not crowd the front panel... 8)

Sieben, Korg's entire ROM style selection and pretty much most user styles I've ever heard use the four fills as two up (1-2 & 1-3, and 2-3 & 3-4 etc) and two down. Although the OS is arcane enough to provide more possibilities, outside of song specific styles (I won't get too much into how I hate those compared to SMF's!), they pretty much ALL do exactly the same thing. But for good reason... The Variations provide a gradual build from a stripped down, low energy Var1 to a full on, flat out Var4. Two fills, despite some here STILL defending that, are totally incapable of providing smooth transitions from each starting point to its destination (the one fill-up needs to work from the really quiet one to the next quiet one, AND from the really quiet one to the flat-out one... can't be done well, IMO). So Korg moving to four is welcome. But, in that usual Korg 'baffle 'em with science' OS, they provide FAR more choice than anyone typically uses (including their own style makers!), but the cost is a front panel and OS that's far more complicated than 99% of their users need.

While it's nice to THINK that you might need to be able to direct what fills are used for what transition, honestly, how many people actually use that? The widespread adoption and general happiness with the Auto-fill feature shows that, 99% of the time, all people want is an appropriate fill to smooth the transition they want to make.

Let's also point out that Intros and Endings can be called up at ANY time in the bar before they are needed (unlike fills, which often don't need to run the full one or two bars they are created with and are timing dependent), so, to be frank, having to press TWO buttons to call them up (the buttons ARE right next to each other!) is no great imposition. Plenty of time to get it right.

We all get USED to systems, but just because used to them doesn't mean that, for one thing, you can't get used to another thing. And secondly, there may be as many advantages to different systems as you think there are disadvantages. You just need to get USED to it!

Bet you are used to hitting TWO buttons to operate that Chord Sequencer, aren't you? :twisted:

Look, I'm not coming here to slam Korg in any way. I LIKE the PA3X in many ways, there's much on it I like. But I simply hope that we can talk about alternative ideas and systems without getting too defensive. As far as I am concerned, just about every arranger (including Roland's!) could be improved considerably. We should be able to talk about it without rancor, surely?! 8)
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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

Hi Dikikeys

Apologies, I wasn't referring to "Chord Sequencer" - I misunderstood.

I thought it was about STYLE play.

Pete :D
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Arranger for Beginners or Professionals

Post by siebenhirter »

karmathanever wrote: Apologies, I wasn't referring to "Chord Sequencer" - I misunderstood. I thought it was about STYLE play.
In that case you did not misunderstood. We talked about styleplay and did not mean buttons (Play/Rec) of Chord Sequencer but meant buttons of RhythmComposer - that is the styleplayer of Roland. ChordSequencer with its operations sequencing or playing ChordLoops (Rec/Play) has nothing to do with buttons to be necessary for Intro / Fill / Variation / Ending.
**
Looking to Page 103, Usermanual, a BK-9 pattern-based accompaniment consist of the following elements :
* The basic groove (as backbone).
* Alternatives for the basic groove (“variation”).
* Fill-Ins to announce the beginning of new parts.
* An introduction and a closing section (ending).

Programming four to eight patterns for Roland is enough.
The BK-9 allows you to program different patterns per rhythm, some of which can be selected via dedicated buttons (VARIATION [1]~[4], etc.), just use them in the right order to make them
suitable for your song.
*
Some Patterns of a maximum of 54 are selected on the basis of the chords you play in the chord recognition area of the keyboard (major, minor, seventh).
*************************************************************
Dikikeys wrote: I just consider two button presses like a chord or interval. Pretty easy to hit the ENDING button and the NUMBER button, given there's only four big ones to choose from! !
Ending and Number are elements of Rhythm Composer (not ChordSequencer).
If Fill, Intro and Ending is rigidly connected to one of its groove (variation), more of two Fill-buttons even would be nonsense with BK-9. You could not use elements (like Fill-Ins) independent as you do with Korgs stylemachine.
*
To understand differences between easy-use-standard-features of arrangers (for beginners) or extended functionality (for needs of professionals), read usermanual of BK-9 (Rhythm-Composer Cap. 22).
Dikikeys wrote: Let's also point out that Intros and Endings can be called up at ANY time in the bar before they are needed (unlike fills, which often don't need to run the full one or two bars they are created with and are timing dependent) ... Two fills, despite some here STILL defending that, are totally incapable of providing smooth transitions from each starting point to its destination
Also read user-manual of your Pa-Keyboard to find how to set starting-points not to get your problems with totally incapable Fill-Ins.

It seems to be necessary to understand functions of styleplay-machines and to try using features going beyond simple standards and beyond autofills.
The less functions one offers the less function-buttons are needed!
Last edited by siebenhirter on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- siebenhirter, austria -

Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
jimsweb
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Post by jimsweb »

My first keyboard is PA900 and i never felt any issues in pressing a var button and auto fill button together..!

+1 to Dikikeys
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siebenhirter
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Alternative ideas - less buttons nothing else ?

Post by siebenhirter »

jimsweb wrote:My first keyboard is PA900 and i never felt any issues in pressing a var button and auto fill button together..!
Be happy with your first keyboard and to be satisfied as it is with never felt any issues for your needs!
I have no Pa900 but would think about to buy one, if Korg WOULD TRY TO HOLD THE LEVEL OF FUNCTIONS THAT ALREADY WHERE PRESENT - expectant that, because topic of this thread is "New Korg PA3XLe" (76-key versioned Pa900).
AntonySharmman wrote: .... Also Pa600/900/Le users do not forget the other vanished PaSeries feature you didn't had the chance to meet ... individual properties for every single STS , pro feature that provides 4 different function modes in every style via the 4 STS !
A Pa3x owner like me & Pete for instance (even pa800/2X users), can sympathize new Pa models owners issue , and be detached but when find ourselves in position to play exclusively with a Le/900, then the obvious lack will be revealed in the first 2 minutes.
Dikikeys wrote: But I simply hope that we can talk about alternative ideas and systems without getting too defensive.
We can, but hardly to do comparisons without correctness of infos about features and properties of compared instruments - read manual of BK-9!.
* As Intro/End/Fill-Ins are groove-derived you need no button for individual triggering.
* You do not need a special "Fill-Mode" as performance always is running with static groove-derived style-elements.
* You do not need a special "CueMode" as Fill-In always starts in the same static manner without possibility to trigger or influence starting-point and length (an not selectable for each STS separately).
* Etc .....as only few but not all points

It is hard to talk about alternatives without knowledge about features which has been there for a long time and also existing in small previous models before New Pa900/600/300/Pa3xle.

It is hard to talk about alternatives without knowledge about features of instruments and techniques without studying its properties (ChordSequencer and RhythmComposer are different elements) - to maintain "there are fewer buttons" maybe properly, but worthless within right context.
Last edited by siebenhirter on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
kind regards
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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Simplicity or flexibility

Post by siebenhirter »

Dikikeys wrote: Arranger users tend to fall into two camps ... Operational simplicity and operational flexibility
Auto-Start, Auto-Play, Auto-Fill, Auto-Select, Auto-Repeat, Auto-Stop - customizing for eachs creativity and professionals
Dikikeys wrote: get any of the Roland's Divisions with the six buttons
.. to play static groove-derived style-elements
Dikikeys wrote: 'baffle 'em with science' OS, they provide FAR more choice than anyone typically uses (including their own style makers!), but the cost is a front panel and OS that's far more complicated than 99% of their users need.
Clairvoyant presumptions only (anyone typically, 99% of users - NO) - seems to be there are users that need provided more choice as you use and sometimes also more choice as existing at present, users that like integrated stylemaker (but would be good to have similar software for computer), users without general troubles with buttons of front-panel (maybe arranged and grouped differently!) ...
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

Sorry guys, but I can see unfamiliarity with Roland's influencing your responses (or unfamiliarity with English...).

Roland's Fills work EXACTLY the same as Korg's do. They are Style Divisions, capable of being triggered on any beat up until the very last (where they will wait for the next bar to start). They also have the same ability to be different depending on chord type played (admittedly, only three compared to Korg's four, but a minor issue). So, if you want to inflate the numbers like some have tried on this thread, Roland's have SIX basic fills, times the three chord options. 18 Fills...

Difference is, I'm NOT using those inflated numbers. You have no choice what CHORD you play (if playing a song that you know the chords to!) when you trigger a fill. So, in PRACTICAL, real world figures, Roland's have six fills, Korg have four. From Korg's OWN specs for the PA3X: "3 Intros, 4 Variations, 4 Fills, Break, 3 Endings"

You see? Even Korg themselves don't try to artificially inflate their figures by counting CV's as actual different Fills. I am not really sure why I'm reading this from you guys...

And sorry, but the confusion between the Chord Sequencer operation and Intro and Ending selection all came about because someone posted how difficult it was for them to get used to pressing two buttons to get an Ending or Intro on a Roland, when each of them had their own individual buttons on a Korg. I pointed out that the Chord Sequencer requires you (on a Korg, not a Roland) to press two buttons simultaneously, so how come THAT gets a pass, when Roland's way of controlling Intros and Endings gets attacked? Consistency helps, chaps!

When Korg themselves don't use 99% of the arcane style division control elements, and simply do what Roland and Yamaha and every other arranger does on pretty much ALL their ROM styles, you have to wonder why it's SO important to some people... To justify their choice of arranger, to proclaim its superiority over the rest, or do they actually USE it? Korg don't, very much!

No clairvoyance needed... I've worked with Korg's with Korg users, and been an active participant in arranger forums for decades. TBH, I don't think I have EVER heard a user style that extensively uses any more specific fill control than 'Up as you go up, Down as you go down'! That Korg allow you to do illogical jumps doesn't mean many people actually DO! When Korg themselves rarely if ever use the function, it is REALLY something you want to tout as being significant?

This whole topic of argument started when ONE person said he found having to press TWO buttons to get an ending too complicated. The rest is simply misunderstanding or overly sensitive 'defense' of Korg's layout, when I pointed out that Roland users do just FINE with six buttons to do what would take 19 buttons to do (Roland's have two extra fills and one extra Intro and one extra Ending to be accounted for) on a Korg.

Strokes for folks, I guess, but I like to have things simple. Using arcane capabilities that even Korg rarely if ever use to justify that massive increase in buttons doesn't cut it for me. Keep it simple, keep it easy to operate, make it comprehensible and easy to operate for beginner and professional alike. TBH, the REAL professionals I know are more concerned with actually PLAYING stuff and having the machine as easy to use and transparent to operate than any perceived need for arcane division routings no-one hardly ever uses!
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Simple or efficient stylemachine

Post by siebenhirter »

Dikikeys wrote: Roland's Fills work EXACTLY the same as Korg's do.
No - it simply does not. If you would compare styleengines really seriously instead counting amounts of fill-ins rigidly bound to its groove, you would not mean "Roland's Fills work EXACTLY the same as Korg's do".

You are looking intensive for simplicity and you have aversions to styleeditor and advanced choice for individual use of elements. I suppose you simple use preset-styles and never tried to adapt styles for your needs, as not familiar with styleeditor.

If familiar with styleediting you would not write about ...
Dikikeys wrote: Roland's Fills ...... are Style Divisions, capable of being triggered on any beat up until the very last (where they will wait for the next bar to start).
Once again i recommend to use manuals and study structure of styleengines of both brands - you will find the difference, to be able to talk about honest and realistic.

Thats because Fill-In of BK-9 are not separated style-divisions, but like other one-shot divisions (Intro, Fill-up, Fill-down, Ending) coupled with one loop-division (groove) of BK-9.

Thats again because Fill-Mode of Pa-Keyboards (since i3) allows to set parameters for a Variation to be automatically selected at the end of each of the available Fills without restrictions, also to do with each STS and performance separately. You will notice that if your focus does not lay on simplicity and exclusive use of simple styles.

Thats again because CueMode for Fill-Ins lets decide how the current StyleElement will be entered after it has been selected. There is no restriction to be triggered on any beat up until the very last, where they will wait for the next bar to start.

To vote for simplicity is therefore to get instruments with simple and reduced possibilities - so you need no more buttons for simple applications.

If you want to talk about if it is necessary to do jumps, that is another topic. You call jumps illogical as using preset-styles, not prepared for simple, nothing for individual needs.

If you want to talk about if it is necessary to decide how to trigger styleelements after Fill-Ins (Immediate, first measure or Immediate, current measure or maybe Next measure, first), that is again another topic. Maybe unnecesseraly under premise of simplicity.

But it is incorrect to say a simplified style-engine is working like another, with an advantage to be simpler with the same efficiency, as that appears only as suiteable for simple applications.

I hope, Korg predominantly WOULD TRY TO HOLD THE LEVEL OF FUNCTIONS THAT ALREADY WHERE PRESENT - as simple styleengines can be found elsewhere.
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

Sorry sieben... all I can say is, take your OWN advice and read up carefully about Roland's style creation tools.

There is no intrinsic need for the 'groove' to be included in the fill. They are standalone style Divisions, just like Korg's. That most styles use them as groove CONNECTING Divisions is no different to Korg.

Yes, there is quite a big difference between the two over how you can trigger the things, but the simple FACT is, for all practical purposes, Korg and Roland do the exact same thing with them. And that, FAR more than any theoretical capability, is what 99% of all users care about.

Fills are designed to smoothly move you from one Variation to the next.

Perhaps YOU use them in a more arcane method (I know some people split up SMF's and assign them to different Style Divisions, to allow them a bit more flexible way of triggering song segments than using the Markers feature, but it's pretty rare) but in theory, there's NO reason why a Roland fill can't be more than one bar long.

And yes, Roland have a preset designation about which Variations each Fill will connect. But once again, for all PRACTICAL purposes, this is as preset on Korg ROM styles as it is on Roland ones. Only difference is, with six rather than four fills, the smoothness of connection is a bit better on Roland's. TBH, this is the real NEED for a more complicated system on Korg's, to mitigate the fact that there are fewer fills, hence the direction and destination of each fill needs to be tweaked a bit more at times.

No, you can't loop fills in Roland's. You have to repeatedly press the Fill switch or footswitch. Big wup! How many times do you sit there and play a fill over and over again, anyway? Yes, sure, if you use a Fill to be a Style Variation, it's handy. But, for the love of God, point out to me how many of Korg's ROM styles do this? I have yet to find one! As I said earlier, if Korg themselves don't use this capability, just how important is it?! :roll:

It's all well and good to sit there and crow about additional options, but when the manufacturer themselves don't use it, few people make user styles, and even fewer of them make GOOD styles, what's the big deal? I think it's about time for show and tell... If all this stuff is so bloody important, let's hear YOUR styles using it! Show us how important it is. I've read enough... :twisted:
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Post by siebenhirter »

Dikikeys wrote: I've read enough...
... as you wrote you can't loop fills in Roland's and have a preset designation about which Variations each Fill will connect, but Korg and Roland do the exact same - I've read enough too
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Post by AntonySharmman »

Why don't you guys use a Skype account to avoid wasting of writing time and "ink" ? :D
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Post by karmathanever »

Why don't you guys use a Skype account
This has become mostly an argument between two members.

May I politely suggest you take this off-line - maybe with PMs.

I'm locking this topic now.

Pete :D
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