I thought of posting Busch's excellent example of phase cancellation issues, but that occurs more significantly when you sample each individual drawbar and then use those as building blocks to create a new registration. If you sample an already setup drawbar "voicing" I don't think the issue is as severe as his example. There will still be problems, but not as bad as creating sampled individual drawbars... The same problem exists in any module (like the Peavey, and the Emu, I believe) because of this.
If it were, the same phenomenon would occur on every HD-1-based organ. Which it doesn't to the degree demonstrated above.
Personally, I think the CX3 engine can get you there, perhaps with an outboard Leslie sim. But as an example of a dissenting vote, Jack Hotop and I were discussing this, and he felt that for really strong rock and prog tunes, when he plays with a loud band he finds the HD-1 organs simply cut through better, and stand out with the power that he needs. But he gets what he needs from the existing Programs, he didn't need to go sample an organ custom to get there.
Jerry
Organ Sampling Question--am I missing something?
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
Then sampling is not the route for you. Looping the samples etc. is tedious work, and requires special tools and skills. You've been warned.mymusic42 wrote:TO JEREMYKEYS
Now I have a wife, kids, a job. I just don't think I have the time to learn/experiment and create my own sounds. So I was thinking that sampling might solve my problem.
Jerry
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jeremykeys
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jerrythek wrote:Then sampling is not the route for you. Looping the samples etc. is tedious work, and requires special tools and skills. You've been warned.mymusic42 wrote:TO JEREMYKEYS
Now I have a wife, kids, a job. I just don't think I have the time to learn/experiment and create my own sounds. So I was thinking that sampling might solve my problem.
I certainly understand about the time constraints with job and family. I'm lucky. My daughter moved out and now it's just my wife, myself and 2 cats and we both work.
As for programming my own organ sound, I just called up a blank slot and copied an organ that I already somewhat liked. From there I just went to the control panel and adjusted whatever I felt was needed including EQ.
Danatkorg had the numbers for setting up your Leslie sim but someone else here on this thread has some. It actually didn't take all that long at all. I've set it up so that my damper pedal controls the Leslie speed. Just a quick tap does it. I find myself playing the drawbars a fair bit too.
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, my very old MiniKorg, 4 acoustic and 9 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a Steel guitar, a bunch of microphones, 2 pairs of studio monitors and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 4 cats and a lava lamp!
Gear: Kronos 73, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, my very old MiniKorg, 4 acoustic and 9 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a Steel guitar, a bunch of microphones, 2 pairs of studio monitors and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 4 cats and a lava lamp!
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jeremykeys
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Merry Christmas and I wish you the best of luck with finding your perfect organ sound.
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, my very old MiniKorg, 4 acoustic and 9 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a Steel guitar, a bunch of microphones, 2 pairs of studio monitors and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 4 cats and a lava lamp!
Gear: Kronos 73, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, my very old MiniKorg, 4 acoustic and 9 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a Steel guitar, a bunch of microphones, 2 pairs of studio monitors and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 4 cats and a lava lamp!
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burningbusch
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Jerry brings up a good point about the phasing being much more of an issue when you're creating the drawbar setting with individual tones, as I did on the Yamaha. To get a feel for what a sampled drawbar setting sounds like, just go to an initialized HD-1 program and change the multisample from the default piano to something like E.Organ-Full. You might hear a bit of phasing but it's not bad at all--actually it should be perfectly acceptable.
A few things regarding sampling of the B3. 1) You're probably going to have a fair amount of noise that gets recorded--just the nature of the beast. The problem is if you don't apply software noise reduction after the fact, that noise is going to multiply with every note you play on the sampled instrument. 2) You might keep life simple and record let's say 10 seconds of every note you decide to sample. You can then worry about looping at another time. The instrument will be somewhat larger in the Kronos but it really doesn't matter with disk streaming, it's still going to be very small.
Busch.
A few things regarding sampling of the B3. 1) You're probably going to have a fair amount of noise that gets recorded--just the nature of the beast. The problem is if you don't apply software noise reduction after the fact, that noise is going to multiply with every note you play on the sampled instrument. 2) You might keep life simple and record let's say 10 seconds of every note you decide to sample. You can then worry about looping at another time. The instrument will be somewhat larger in the Kronos but it really doesn't matter with disk streaming, it's still going to be very small.
Busch.
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
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MYmusic42,
I read through the thread and the one thing that I didn't see was whether or not you had tried the new KRS-06 organs.. (you said you tried 2.1 but I don't think you said anything about the new sounds).. From my perspective, you haven't tried the new CX3 engine unless you've tried those sounds.. Those sounds are so good that I'm not sure I would bother even using my neo Ventilator, or my GSI Burn leslie sims!
I am pretty fussy about my Hammond sound, and I've owned almost every clone that's ever been produced over the last 10 years.. and the CX3 engine version 2.1 sounds awesome... Now that said, you may have a VERY unique and/or specific sound that you're looking for. However, if you're that fussy about the sound, you're NOT likely to be happy with a static sample (by that I mean lacking the ability to work drawbars and other controls such as percussion and C/V in real time).
My suggestion is to get the KRS-06 sounds loaded in, if you haven't already done so, and try those before you go off on a tangent and start sampling your own organ sounds.. ALSO, have you thought about providing a link to a recording of the sound that you're looking for? Perhaps someone else can suggest how you might tweak the CX3 engine to get close to that sound?
Sampling a Hammond organ is going to be a lot of work and it's highly unlikely that you're going to get a sound that you will be happy with. By the way, tweaking the CX3 engine will be a LOT easier than working with the sampling engine.. and I bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll get a lot better results, just tweaking the CX3 engine a bit!
I read through the thread and the one thing that I didn't see was whether or not you had tried the new KRS-06 organs.. (you said you tried 2.1 but I don't think you said anything about the new sounds).. From my perspective, you haven't tried the new CX3 engine unless you've tried those sounds.. Those sounds are so good that I'm not sure I would bother even using my neo Ventilator, or my GSI Burn leslie sims!
I am pretty fussy about my Hammond sound, and I've owned almost every clone that's ever been produced over the last 10 years.. and the CX3 engine version 2.1 sounds awesome... Now that said, you may have a VERY unique and/or specific sound that you're looking for. However, if you're that fussy about the sound, you're NOT likely to be happy with a static sample (by that I mean lacking the ability to work drawbars and other controls such as percussion and C/V in real time).
My suggestion is to get the KRS-06 sounds loaded in, if you haven't already done so, and try those before you go off on a tangent and start sampling your own organ sounds.. ALSO, have you thought about providing a link to a recording of the sound that you're looking for? Perhaps someone else can suggest how you might tweak the CX3 engine to get close to that sound?
Sampling a Hammond organ is going to be a lot of work and it's highly unlikely that you're going to get a sound that you will be happy with. By the way, tweaking the CX3 engine will be a LOT easier than working with the sampling engine.. and I bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll get a lot better results, just tweaking the CX3 engine a bit!
Craig MacDonald
Picking up from ccmacdon's comment, I'd be curious to know whether JH still feels this way after the recent CX3 engine update.jerrythek wrote:as an example of a dissenting vote, Jack Hotop and I were discussing this, and he felt that for really strong rock and prog tunes, when he plays with a loud band he finds the HD-1 organs simply cut through better, and stand out with the power that he needs.
Keep in mind that the Hammond organs in a lot of prog rock bands were heavily processed!! We know about Jon Lords ring modulator/stack of marshals sound, but also Wakeman processed his Hammond through an outboard chorus (I believe, not sure if this was pre/post leslie) and also Keith Emersons leslies were heavily modded.. (I think they used guitar amps for power).. I'm not positive of the details, regarding all of the mods, but I am positive that they are all heavily processed.Scott wrote:Picking up from ccmacdon's comment, I'd be curious to know whether JH still feels this way after the recent CX3 engine update.jerrythek wrote:as an example of a dissenting vote, Jack Hotop and I were discussing this, and he felt that for really strong rock and prog tunes, when he plays with a loud band he finds the HD-1 organs simply cut through better, and stand out with the power that he needs.
So it may be that a sampled organ might cut better or provide a better prog rock sound, and that wouldn't surprise me at all. However, if you take that into consideration and use the TFX/MFX in the same manner as these prog rock Hammonds were processed you'll probably be pleasantly surprised!
I have say that the KE organs are very nice in the KRS-06 sound set, especially the "eruption split" (I think that's the name of the program, my Kronos is packed up right now)..
AGAIN, go work with the CX3 organ and get those KRS-06 sounds, I think that the OP will be pleasantly surprised.. AND consider posting a link to the sound that you're looking for and let's see if some folks more experienced with Hammonds and the CX3 engine can help provide some pointers as to how to achieve that sound!!
Craig MacDonald
I am away from my Kronos this week, but when I get back I will take another listen to the KRS-06 organs. I am pretty sure I listened to them when I did the update and my general thought was yes this sounds better than the old organs, but still not what I am looking for. But I will listen again.
Perhaps I will post an mp3 of what I am looking for as well, as well. That's a good idea.
My general feel towards the CX3 engine (and most of the other clones I have owned over the years) is that they do a good job of organ emulation until I come to the all stops out 888888888 registration. That is thin compared to a real Hammond (to me) and that is the one I was going to sample.
I fully understand the appeal and versatility of changing drawbars on the fly, but having an all stops out sample that is fat and full enough for me would just make my day!
I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for everyone's comments and ideas.
Perhaps I will post an mp3 of what I am looking for as well, as well. That's a good idea.
My general feel towards the CX3 engine (and most of the other clones I have owned over the years) is that they do a good job of organ emulation until I come to the all stops out 888888888 registration. That is thin compared to a real Hammond (to me) and that is the one I was going to sample.
I fully understand the appeal and versatility of changing drawbars on the fly, but having an all stops out sample that is fat and full enough for me would just make my day!
I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for everyone's comments and ideas.
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geoelectro
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With an 888888888 setting, there are many tones that come from one source that are shared on different keys. For example,
Middle C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-25- -44- -37- -49- -56- -61- -65- - -68- -73
G above Mid C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-32- -51- -44- -56- -63- -68- --72- -75- - 80
C octave above Mid C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-37- -56- -49- -61- -68- -73- --77- - 80- - 85
As you can see, playing the mid C and the G above, there are three tones that would be repeated in sampling where in a Hammond (Clone) they would be shared.
Add the octave and you now have about 12 notes. That's just playing three keys!
When these notes are shared, there are no phase differences since it's the same source. When these notes are sampled, they now become separate sources whose phase relationship varies depending on how they were sampled and more importantly when the key is pressed.
In my experience the interesting thing is when the sampled Hammond sound is run through effects, that's when these phase issues are exaggerated. Most effects use phase shifting of some sort or another and react badly to the phase differences of the sampling.
Someone mentioned that other sounds with more harmonics seem to do better when sampling. A piano has over 200 strings and they are separate tone generators whose phase is always changing. In fact, they are tuned with stretch tuning making them even more independent of each other. Sampling each note in that situation doesn't add any phase issues. In a Hammond, the tone generator runs constantly and the keys just turn the sound on and off. Sampling here loses the fixed phase relationship of the generator due to the nature of sampling.
Geo
Middle C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-25- -44- -37- -49- -56- -61- -65- - -68- -73
G above Mid C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-32- -51- -44- -56- -63- -68- --72- -75- - 80
C octave above Mid C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-37- -56- -49- -61- -68- -73- --77- - 80- - 85
As you can see, playing the mid C and the G above, there are three tones that would be repeated in sampling where in a Hammond (Clone) they would be shared.
Add the octave and you now have about 12 notes. That's just playing three keys!
When these notes are shared, there are no phase differences since it's the same source. When these notes are sampled, they now become separate sources whose phase relationship varies depending on how they were sampled and more importantly when the key is pressed.
In my experience the interesting thing is when the sampled Hammond sound is run through effects, that's when these phase issues are exaggerated. Most effects use phase shifting of some sort or another and react badly to the phase differences of the sampling.
Someone mentioned that other sounds with more harmonics seem to do better when sampling. A piano has over 200 strings and they are separate tone generators whose phase is always changing. In fact, they are tuned with stretch tuning making them even more independent of each other. Sampling each note in that situation doesn't add any phase issues. In a Hammond, the tone generator runs constantly and the keys just turn the sound on and off. Sampling here loses the fixed phase relationship of the generator due to the nature of sampling.
Geo
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HP i7 8GB Win 10
Yamaha P-80 Weighted Keyboard. NanoPad2
Yes, our conversation was very recent... long after we had done the work on V2.1/KRS-06.Scott wrote:Picking up from ccmacdon's comment, I'd be curious to know whether JH still feels this way after the recent CX3 engine update.jerrythek wrote:as an example of a dissenting vote, Jack Hotop and I were discussing this, and he felt that for really strong rock and prog tunes, when he plays with a loud band he finds the HD-1 organs simply cut through better, and stand out with the power that he needs.
It was not a "diss" against the CX3/KRS-06... Jack simply felt that for some of those aggressive prog tunes that the HD-1 versions cut through with more power. He loves the new CX3 engine and worked very hard on new sounds for it.
But the point here is that you have choices... wonderful choices. If a sound is right/feels right/works it really doesn't matter where it comes from. In context within a track or a performance if it's the right ingredient use it.
Happy Holidays all!
Jerry