kaossilator pro synchronisation??? please help

ello · Post by **ello** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:06 pm

hi there,

since yesterday i own a kaossilator pro and am very happy with it. today i tried to use it within my other equipment but i am not able to get it either start ssynchronised by the tr 909 or to sync the 909.

is there any way that starting the kaossilator starts the 909?

when i use the midi in of the kaossilator it has the same bpm as the 909, but it is nearly impossible to start it precise enough to play exactly on beat with the 909.

any ideas?

cheers,
ello

Bowmoney · Post by **Bowmoney** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:05 pm

no, you can't...the midi on the kpro is terrible

ello · Post by **ello** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:09 pm

wtf?? thats terrible news

now i know why the person i bought it from sold it... its fun, but in that case not usable

Bowmoney · Post by **Bowmoney** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:09 pm

the clock messages can go in and out of the kpro...but there is not a Start/Stop command that I can find....probably because it would not know which banks to start/stop...

Telengard · Post by **Telengard** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:45 pm

You can start and stop banks that have recordings in them using notes sent to the kaossilator pro. You have to remember that the recorded banks are audio and not midi data.

The notes to start/stop the banks are in the manual on page 23. You have to figure which octave to send. From some devices it is C4 other C5, etc for loop bank A. One of my iPad apps calls it at C6 I think.

Hope that helps.

There is a lot of info in the manual and on this forum.

ello · Post by **ello** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:50 pm

Thank you for the info...

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:52 am

I am about to buy a Kaossilator Pro to use in combination with my current gear, the EMX and the Kaoss Pad 3. I read about issues with the midi clock, that you cannot sync it with other midi devices. Is that true, is it not possible to keep all three things on the same bpm? If so, I can hardly imagine to use the Kaossilator, since its loops will play somehow against the EMX.

Telengard · Post by **Telengard** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:40 am

There is a great explanation of it on the forum here. I will try to find it for you.

Update:

from RonF:

It does however quantize the loop point (sample end point in this case) when you record, and this works great. Set it for 16 beats, and it will loop after 16 beats, in time to the master clock (internal or external). But that is really the end of its quantize and sync capabilities.

Once that sample is recorded and looped (which is "tagged" with a BPM when recorded, based on the clock source at the time of recording), then triggering that sample simply causes it to cycle at its tagged BPM. its not getting re-triggered each loop cycle in time to the master clock. its merely freewheeling at the tagged BPM.

Therefore, eventually it will drift...for two reasons.....1. Every device calculates BPM slightly differently, and 2. Midi clock just drifts a little bit.....always has always will (thus the benefits of MTC over midi clock).

If KP3/KPRO was designed to sync the start point of each loop cycle to a measure or bar marker in the clock source....then it would sync in perfect time (drift and all) forever. Alas this is not the case.....but not typically the case with many samplers. The algorithms for making this happen (a merge of audio clock with midi clock) are far more complex than the basic, which we have here in KPRO, which relies on audio clock only when re-triggering samples.

What the KPRO/KP3 does have is an algorithm to stretch in real time to adapt to the BPM of the master clock. This algorithm uses the original BPM tag to calculate the stretch. But once stretched to the new (current) BPM...the freewheeling loop cycling is still what is happening.

and from xmlguy:

With regard to the sync, the KP3 and KoPro do keep in sync, with themselves, across the four loops (when the samples are the same size). The problem is when 8 bars at 120 bpm is 16.008 seconds on them compared to 15.992 seconds on an external device, where both device think they played a 16 second sample but don't, due to small errors in the clock timing. These errors accumulate for each loop, and become significant very quickly over the length of a song. So the question remains? What to do with the difference in timing? Korg's answer was to not sync. The midi timing is only used to set the BPM. This was in keeping with the original design as a DJ effector, rather than a live audio looper designed to sync to midi. DJ's can cue music sources and should be able to sync them through the headphones to match whatever's playing. Given that design, that's how you have to treat the KP3 and KoPro - they're the master loopers and you sync to them.

Hard to find the exact one I was looking for as the search function isn't working on the forums right now.

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:42 pm

Thanks for me the help and the searching job. From what I understood, the basic midi clock syncing does actually work. Only very often done and long looping results in a drift of the bpm, due to a bit weirdish kind of calcularting the bpm.
Maybe it is helpful to put my issues in clear words, since I also read that some people complain about the beats playing not bpm synced, eventhough the device itself recieves and displays the right tempo. I want to play things in connection with a emx' pattern. Easiest example would be that I have a 4/4 kick, at 120 bpm on my emx and I want to add a 2/4 snare to the beat played by the kaossilator pro. Eventually the midi syncing works, and both drums play together in the right tempo.
Does this work, or is this also influenced by the issue mentioned above?

Bowmoney · Post by **Bowmoney** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:47 am

as long as you play it right in time and start the bank right in time, they should synch fine...mine do...but you have to start it right in time...sometimes hitting it just right is tough

Telengard · Post by **Telengard** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:52 am

Bowmoney wrote:as long as you play it right in time and start the bank right in time, they should synch fine...mine do...but you have to start it right in time...sometimes hitting it just right is tough

Yeah, my timing has improved greatly since I picked mine up.

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:03 pm

Bowmoney wrote:as long as you play it right in time and start the bank right in time, they should synch fine...mine do...but you have to start it right in time...sometimes hitting it just right is tough

As I primarly want to add sounds to an existing pattern when it is already playing, timing is not that bad for me if it comes to play a recorded loop at the right moment.
My major request would be that if I have something playing on my emx, and would play some synth sounds on the kaossilator while recording it, the loop I created this way will fit to the emx pattern the way I played it live.

In other words I have a pattern, and I select some drums. I jam a bit, and then I am playing something which fits to the emx pattern. I hit the bank button, and the drums I am still playing record, and then loop. Will this work? Later, I will delete it and there is no need that something I recorded on the kaossilator has to be played again in comibation with the pattern. The kaossilator is intended to simply do some live played sounds. I hope you got me on that, since I do not want to waste about 300 bucks for something I do not need.

Bowmoney · Post by **Bowmoney** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:39 pm

ok, so here is what i would recommend to accomplish this easily...

1) get your emx pattern going
2) go to yoor kpro on bank A...select a quarter note from the appregiator
3) select a simple drum sound, like a closed hi hat on the kpro
4) in time with the emx rhythm that is playing, hold the bank A button and put yoru finger down on the kpro in the area of the closed hi hat
5) you should know have a 16 or 8 beat patter of quarter note hi hats
6) leave this bank running AT ALL TIMES....that will make sure that the kpro is always running in time with the emx
7) if you do not want to hear the hi hat, lower that bank level...or, after a little while, delete the audio from the track, but keep the track running...

as long as one track of yoru kpro is always running, it should never get out of synch with the emx clock
9) I set bank A of song 0 to always be a quarter note click...that way, I can start up my electribe, start bank A, and I will hear that teh click is in time with the EMX...from there, either record over the click without stopping the loop, or mute bank A and start recording on other banks...
10) this way should work, but does require the annoying step of recording the click track to ensure everything is running together...obviously, if you stop all the kpro audio, you will need to be in synch when starting it, but even if you leave a blank track playing, it should stay in time.

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:11 pm

Cool thanks. You seem to own both devices and use them in the same way I want them to, so your idea will eventually work

In what way do you use the kaossilator? Does it work well in combination with the emx? Did you ever create some bassline, synth leads whatever mixed up with a pattern playing on the emx. Pardon my curiosity, but there seem to be not that many people who own both machines and I want to know what things they do with them.

Bowmoney · Post by **Bowmoney** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:29 pm

i use an em-1, not an emx...but you can see what i do here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG3O-Xt ... 93&lf=plcp

there are lots of vids with both the kpro and the electribe