question about pianos

[gsuhon]

Like a lot of posts I've read here on this forum, i too am dissatisfied with the pianos in the Korg M50. I've had the keyboard for a year and have tweaked and tweaked (I've been tweaking Korg keyboards since the DW6000, so I'm pretty familiar with it, though I don't have hours to experiment. Also, I've never been dissatisfied with any Korg keyboard I've ever owned.......ok, well maybe the DS8) Though I think I've improved on the piano sounds in the M50, I still don't have what I'm looking for: A clean and crisp piano that cuts through the mix.

My question is: I was in a local music store today and was looking at the new Korg Microstation Microsynth. It also has an EDS synth engine (though its called "EDS-i") I don't know how different that is from the EDS in the M50. There is a piano patch in the Microstation called "A. Piano" that appears to be pretty much the piano I'm looking for. The M50 doesn't seem to have it and I was wondering if there is compatibility in the PCG files between the two? And if there was a way to get that piano file into the M50? Or are the multisamples different?

I think the new Korg PS60 has that same "A. Piano" patch.

I'm really trying to like this M50 but piano is my main patch and I need something that is as least as good as the piano on the TR I'm currently using.

Thanks.

[Kim Lajoie]

I don't think the PCG files are compatible - I'm pretty sure the EDS-i synths use different multisamples to the EDS synths.

The piano multisamples in the M50 and M3 are quite versatile though - more so than the factory presets suggest. How does your taste in pianos differ to the M50 presets?

-Kim.

[gsuhon]

I think the M50 pianos are weak. they don't seem to cut through the mix as does my TR. Admittedly, I had the same problem with the Tr61 when i first bought it but was able to very quickly modify the stock sounds to something I liked. before I bought the M50 I knew I didn't like the pianos from demo-ing the m50 in the store. but i simply figured that I could "fix" it like I did the TR. But I've had no such luck. The best I can do is get an "ok" piano sound at best.

It hard for me to explain what I hearing or not hearing in the M50 pianos. I think its too mid-rangy, not enough depth, not enough crispness, almost toy-ish. Eq-ing makes it better but not what i'm looking for. When I listen through headphones the M50 sounds good...sort of. Through my PA, playing live, it doesn't even approach the quality of the TR. i know that to some of you, that probably sounds silly. I've read your comments about the M50 and many of you think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.....and though I respect your opinions.....I'm just not hearing it.

sorry about being long winded in my posts but I'm just extremely frustrated after having the M50 for a year and I'm just not comfortable with playing it live. I do use it in the studio for brass and strings and few other things, so at least its getting some use. I do a live solo thing and record my own backing tracks so the M50 is coming in handy there. thanks.

[Kim Lajoie]

I thought the M50 pianos were a bit muddy and unrealistic too, so I made a bunch of new ones. Audio examples are here:

http://soundcloud.com/kim-lajoie/sets/m3-m50-pianos/

Personally, my tastes lean more towards the Yamaha sound - bright and clear. Of course, it's just personal taste; I know a lot of people prefer a dark or woody piano.

What kind of music are you playing? I find dark pianos to just muddy up a mix - especially a dense mix with a lot of instruments. To my ears, a brighter, clearer sound is more versatile.

-Kim.

[billbaker]

I think you sometimes have to look for something LESS piano-ish to find the sound you're looking for.

I'm continually frustrated by other player's telling me ('scuze the following rant) that my sound is not right or sub-par for what we're doing. And it's crazy that the 3 sample deep, multi-sampled Steinway I'm playing gets routinely dissed for sounding "too tinny and toy-like", but if I compress the crap out of it, torture the EQ and extend the decay envelope to make it sound like a bastard cross between a Wurlitzer EP and a DX-7 'FM-grand' emulation [which I hate] it becomes "perfect". AAACKK!

I'm gonna start collecting vintage synth modules -- they're easier to throw at the guitar player.

BB

[mocando]

I think the culprit here is that all samples are inside. Lots of them. You only have to find the right mix of multisamples and effects to achive the sound you are looking for.
I have designed sounds for my Genesis cover band that I would never imagine I could. Is more work than standard presets, but is part of the fun.

[mrteclas]

I'm gonna start collecting vintage synth modules -- they're easier to throw at the guitar player

Man, that was hilarious.

I've 2 piano sounds. One, is my main stereo grand to play in my house, and the other one is for playing with the band. Why? Because in a mix, you won't always sound as you want, because of all the instruments. Maybe a sound is good when played trough headphones, but live you ned to do some extra tweaking to really make it sound.

[iluvchiclets]

I was in a local music store today and was looking at the new Korg Microstation Microsynth. It also has an EDS synth engine (though its called "EDS-i") I don't know how different that is from the EDS in the M50. There is a piano patch in the Microstation called "A. Piano" that appears to be pretty much the piano I'm looking for.

I too had the same experience. My local Long and McQuade music store had an M50 for $999 CAD which I desperately wanted to love and to take home. Yet, every time I played the pianos and Rhodes sounds I was searching for something else or trying to edit them. One simple play on the Microstation and I was sold. I am not crazy about the mini keys, but they are surprisingly easy to use. Now I am looking for an inexpensive 61 key controller. My ears tell me the PS60 sounds great too. (Not too sure about the build though)

I feel the PS60 and Microstation sound superior in some ways when compared to the M50.

[mocando]

I feel the PS60 and Microstation sound superior in some ways when compared to the M50.

That is because you are hearing presets and not all the sound capabilities of the M50. Both the Microstation and PS60 are based on a narrower sample set than the M50. Is a known fact some M50 presets sound a bit blunt, and I'm sure they are designed this way as a starting point to designing much richer sounds.

I'm no Korg engineer, but I bet you can make every MS or PS60 sound on the M50 and not the other way around.

[gsuhon]

Thanks to all of you for the input. Sorry i haven't been on for a while....gigged a lot in December. I'm sitting here with both my TR 61 and the M50 side by side. Comparing sounds through the same system. All things being equal except the two keyboards, the TR just sounds better on EVERYTHING. there is nothing that sounds better, stand alone, on the M50. Now, I do realize that in a mix (i.e. playing with a band) there might be frequencies that get buried. I've been tweaking since early this afternoon, off and on, eq, effects, envelope, etc. No luck to get what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for the TR sounds...I already have that....but I'm looking for something comparable that is not mousey, or toyish. The best piano on the M50 is the M1 clone or the SG, got those too.

Just got some parts in today for my TR61. tact switches are very cheap and don't withstand the cold/condensation. so I replaced them all and rigged some switches i picked up at radio shack in parallel with the ones I use most frequently. it looks like hell but i've put the (A,B,C,D)bank and up and down switches on the far left of the keyboard for easier access with my left hand. So now I have them on both sides. Sorry M50 I've tried to take you out with me but you just don't cut it. KORG hasn't lost me as a customer but I'm extremely disappointed in this effort. the TR with continue to be my "on the road" keyboard. i may take a look at the PS60 but I'll never buy another KORG with the same confidence i had in the past.

[xmlguy]

It hard for me to explain what I hearing or not hearing in the M50 pianos. I think its too mid-rangy, not enough depth, not enough crispness, almost toy-ish. Eq-ing makes it better but not what i'm looking for. When I listen through headphones the M50 sounds good...sort of. Through my PA, playing live, it doesn't even approach the quality of the TR. i know that to some of you, that probably sounds silly. I've read your comments about the M50 and many of you think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.....and though I respect your opinions.....I'm just not hearing it.

I think you need to explore your PA mix more closely to get a better idea of the specific problem that you're trying to identify.

It would help if you describe your PA setup, what's in the mix, the type of music, instruments, and vocals, the amplification and speaker configuration, and the physical layout for gigs. These factors can have a huge impact on the clarity and tonality of piano patches. I'm bringing this up because of your comment above about your perception between listening on headphones vs. through the mix. Besides being a keyboardist/synthesist, I've been doing professional sound for many years, so I might be able to help give you ideas that you haven't considered yet. Cutting through the mix isn't so much what you really need to do, in my opinion: it's making a "hole in the mix" to allow it to come through without being dominated by other musical elements that compete with it. In other words, the piano timbre is only a small (but important) piece in the puzzle of the final mix.

It also might help if you post some live recording of your gigs. If you don't have any, you might want to pick up a Zoom H4N or similar high quality live digital recorder. Doing field recordings can be very useful to get an accurate capture of the mix from the audience perspective. I use the Zoom MRS-8 for field recording because I got it on sale for about $200 and I wanted 8 track playback in addition to digital recording with batteries. The newer R16 does 8 track recording for only $100 more than the H4N, which is what I'd buy now to do live multitrack recording besides field recording, and it works as a USB 8x2 I/O and control surface for studio work.

Here's an example of a live recording done on the R16:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akkOUSOY5lE

[gsuhon]

This is just what I'm talking about. Everyone is quick to make excuses for the bad sounding pianos of the M50. I appreciate all of the input I'm getting on this and I certainly mean no offense, but why do i have to explain my pa? It's the same pa that sounds just wonderful when using my KORG TR61. I use a couple of different pa systems in my live gig. and I also have a studio where I lay down my tracks and make recordings. All of my pa systems can't possibly be causing the same problem of terrible pianos, only in the M50, especially when my TR61 is just fine. The M50 piano multisamples suck. It's just that simple. Everyone that hears them tells me the same thing when comparing them to anything else I own. I'm not saying that the M50 is all bad. I like the electric pianos...some of the brass and I use it for recording where it seems to do the best. I love the navigation with the display and all......it's just those bad sounding acoustic pianos.

I get the whole concept of everything having its space in a mix. I've been doing live sound since....well i played my first bar with my dad at age 9. I'm 52. I started my home studio in 1997. I know how the stuff is supposed to work. Stand alone, the M50 pianos, are not good. the best i can get with hours of tweaking over a period of one year is, maybe, "ok".

[xmlguy]

I didn't make any excuses whatsoever for the M50 piano sounds. You don't have to explain your PA to me if you aren't interested in my help. You don't seem to be able to describe with much precision about the specific nature of why you don't like the result you're getting. You obviously came here just to bitch rather than get any potentially useful ideas. I too have been doing sound since the late 70s, including work for large venues with national tours. I've also designed and built my own mixers and worked for a studio mixer manufacturer, but I didn't come here to get into a pissing contest. I also didn't come here to defend the M50. I have a Triton Extreme (among my large selection of keyboards/synths), so I browse this section occasionally for issues that may be related to live sound or pro studio issues. I was trying to elicit more information from you that I could evaluate for myself. Even with all my decades of experience, I still find it valuable to talk to other professionals for ideas when I have an interesting situation where there's more than one possible solution. I guess I'm the only one who didn't think you were silly and took you seriously. My mistake.

[Gargamel314]

question -

Have you tried the "mono piano" sample in the M50? I know the M3 has a mono version of the original M3's piano which is similar to the OASYS's... which is what the TR's is based on. You might try taking the TR's piano program, loading in all of the program settings onto an M50 program, and then calling up the mono piano multisound in the new patch... that would give you a TR-like piano prog.

just a thought

[gsuhon]

To xmlguy: I certainly meant no disrespect and I apologize if I came across that way (which I obviously did). that's why i said I meant no offense and i appreciated all the input I was getting in my earlier post. But you are absolutely correct, i am bitching, but bitching is not the only reason i'm here. I guess i'm just frustrated by not being able to get what i want in a piano from the m50. You are probably also correct when you say i'm not able to describe the sound. So, again, I do apologize. I was out of line. i didn't come to this forum to make enemies and i do appreciate you're effort to help me.

To Gargamel314: the mono piano sample is the one i've been using and, you're right, it is the closest I've come to a piano sound I can live with. I've actually already done what you've suggested in loading the parameters in the TR's piano setting into the M50 manually.