"transposer" problem solved! THANKS! AFTERMATH!!

[civias]

Sorry guys, my apologies upfront, this will take a lot of writing to describe the problem accurately!

Well, here is my problem since last Saturday (in the middle of a gig!!)

Ah ya, a little info upfront! Bought the PA800 a month ago, used but great shape, or better, really like new!
It worked perfectly until above mentioned moment. Must say I am not new to Korg generally, had once the i30. In these last 4 weeks I did a lot of work on it from scratch, started by formating and reloading newest OS from Korg website. Mixed my own set from a couple different ones, never ever loaded anyone's global settings! Spent at least 200 hours to prepare it for it's first live use. Still have my old Roland EM2000 untill I'll be 100% sure that it's got adequate replacement with the PA800.
Forgot to mention: For whatever reason (out of my mind) I did not take my upper Triton LE with me, nor my EM2000, which never let me down in 9 years of live use! Like never done before, I simply trusted my "new" PA800 to finish the job! What a wrong decision that was, lol!!!!

Now, here's what happened:
The first 2 hours into live play, everything worked just fine.
After singing the first part of a song in D-Mayor I decided to transpose to E-Mayor. That moment the hell started. Something just didn't sound right lol.
In a split second of confusion (had already started singing in E) I decided to go back to D. Pressed both tranposer buttons at once to make sure it goes back to D Mayor. Had no problem to switch back with my singing, as I am a musician now for 35 years exactly.
But again something just still wasn't right. The left and the right hand were not in the same tonality. The left arranger side did switch back correctly, I felt it and could see it in the display!
HOWEVER, the right hand side was still caught up in E-MAYOR.
Panicking, I transposed 2-3 more times back and forth. When the left side goes correctly to D, the right side still remains in E. So, transposer buttons work for sure, just the two sides are 2 semi tones apart.

Somehow I finished the song lol and announced a break.
Now, during the break first I switched the keyboard off and back on, being pretty sure that would do it. Nope, it still was the same. Checked all available parameters in styleplay and global, everything was as it should be, but still after trying different styles, performances and sounds, the problem remained. Imagine that feeling, 3-4 more hours to go, and no 2nd keyboard with me.

Okay, no panic.
1. Decided quickly to reload global settings, sounds and styles. >>> same story!
2. Reloaded the my whole set including samples >>> same story!
Became desperate, as people started getting nervous, lol!!!
Finally decided to announce a longe break because of technical problems!
Of course, I had everything possible on my memory stick with me, sooo
3. Formatted the whole keyboard, reloaded OS2.01 and factory settings!
At that point tested quickly>>>>>> of course lol, SAME STORY!!!!!
Just IMPOSSIBLE right? Now, I started panicking haha!
4. Reloaded my set >>>> same story!!

Ok, at that point I decided to go with what was available.
Because of my experience I somehow managed to sing and entertain for another 3 hours, don't ask if I was sweating???

Another problem showed up once I continued my play:
From time to time, always just for a cou[ple seconds or even just one sound the right side switched back to where it belongs. Which really started pissing me off.
Imagine, hold let's say G minor in the left hand, singing G minor, while playing A minor with the right hand, where from time to time the solo sound or background strings switch for an instant back to G, then again back to the wrong A!!!!!
The only bright side, the longer I played, the more rarely it switched back and forth. The last hour it "finally" stayed in that 2 semi-tones apart condition. At that point I at least depend on it.

SO, today I spent 5 hours on it. Formatted, reloaded OS again, reloaded my set, tried out a couple different sets including their globals, which I always avoided in the past.
Result: SAME OLD STORY (becoming a boring story!)
Went a 100 times through all parameters and such, read the manual up and down, to finally give up lol !\
One thing I am figuring: This can't be a simple problem!

YOU GUYS ARE MY LAST HOPE!
As I said, I do know a lot about keyboards, including the PA800!
But still, I'm out of ideas now!!!!
I am new to this forum, registered today out of desperation! But have been following the forum passively for over a year now, and I know there are some real magicians here, knowing the answer to almost every problem!!!
Really hopeful to get some help here!!
And really THANKFUL for any peace of advice!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!
civias

[karmathanever]

Hi civias

A quick response to start with....
I assume you are playing in STYLE PLAY mode.

Are you aware that when you "transpose" whilst playing, the left hand will not transpose until you actually play the next left hand chord however the right hand will transpose immediately.

Cheers

Pete

[civias]

Hi civias

A quick response to start with....
I assume you are playing in STYLE PLAY mode.

Are you aware that when you "transpose" whilst playing, the left hand will not transpose until you actually play the next left hand chord however the right hand will transpose immediately.

Cheers

Pete

Hey Pete, thanks for your response!
Am very frustrated right now. Spent now the whole day experimenting, reloading, reading manuals, topics etc.

I do know exactly what you mean. But no, unfortunately it's not that. The right hand is simply off two semitones at all times, or better like 1.9!!!!
Also, when I play for example a D tone with right hand while holding C in left, the right one sounds slightly off key.
I tried the transposer back and forth, in sync or realtime, or even "off" mode, problem remains the same.
Transposer does his job, just the right hand is somehow caught up 2 tones away (higher)!
Imagine how I felt on that stage the last 3.5 hours of play, barely here and there touching the upper side lol, but you know, show always has to go on, and jobs need to get finished....

After formatting, and reloading OS 2.01, even before loading anything outside of factory settings, styles, sounds or samples, already there it's the same. Just can't find a logical explanation at all.
Means, even then the factory sounds in right hand are 2 semis away.
When I transpose it moves both sides properly, just the right one is always 2 semis away. Or 1.9, as I mentioned above.

I know you are the man who can help most of the time. I read these topics back and forth for months before deciding to buy PA800.
4 weeks everything was simply perfect, and I spent 200 hours of hard and systematical work of creating my set, which worked fine all the time.
Even for that first two hours of live play. Was supposed to be a joy

Problem occured in the middle of a song, when I decided to transpose 2 semis up! The very next second I noticed it, transposed back, but since that it's permanent. Btw, it was the first tranposer use that night!
WISH I NEVER HIT THAT DAMN BUTTON!!!

I'm sure you know many people here. PLEASE HELP ME BUDDY!
I will be forever thankful if you can!
civias

[civias]

Hi civias

A quick response to start with....
I assume you are playing in STYLE PLAY mode.

Are you aware that when you "transpose" whilst playing, the left hand will not transpose until you actually play the next left hand chord however the right hand will transpose immediately.

Cheers

Pete

Hey Pete karma buddy, a couple more side notes:

Actually, if your general transpose controls in global is set to...:

1. "in Sync" > both sides change with begin of the next 1st measure
2. "in Realtime" > both sides change close to immediately
3. "off" > transpose button have no function, however if you had transposed before, the moment you switch to this "off" setting you get "transposed" back to zero / original tuning, only after that the two transpose buttons are out of function until you enable setting 1 or 2again!
Of course, you have to release a pressed key, and with the next touch only the transpose will come.

Also, sorry for earlier assuming it's like 1.9 semitones discrepancy between left and right hand at all times. I just found out it's more like 2.1 semis apart.
Or to be very precise: 2 full semitones +5 at the fine detuning button.
Am sure you know what I mean!
Again, even factory sounds and without loading anything beside of OS2.01 and factory preset styles and sounds, everything still the same!

Man, I could hit the keybord with a hammer fist pretty soon
Next live performance coming up this saturday, big wedding! I'll die if I have to leave this damn keyboard home. Just started enjoying it.
My old EM2000 will finish that job too along with the Triton Le, but my styles on it are just out of date. Haven't modernized now for months, since I fell in love with the PA800.
Forgot to mention that I rented the PA often out since last November, when I had it for the whole month and spent already another 100 hours preparing my own set. After that I rented it out for every gig, over weekends, before finally buying this unit. Got even my wife mad, because every Sunday was a PA800-testing-preparing-experimenting-Sunday!

I'm an old guy, and had a hard time of convincing myself to switch keyboards one more time in life

[Reuben]

Wow - this is bad.
Are you sure you haven't activated non-standard (maybe Arabic) tuning by mistake? There are several tuning options.

[karmathanever]

Sorry civias - my response was a bit weak !!! You have clearly done all your homework on the PA800.

I now feel similar to Reuben (John) - this doesn't sound good - how did you go with his suggestion? Although a full PA800reset should have put all the defaults back.

Cheers

Pete

[civias]

Wow - this is bad.
Are you sure you haven't activated non-standard (maybe Arabic) tuning by mistake? There are several tuning options.

Thanks for the input Reuben!

No, I haven't, nor do I ever use anything but the equal tuning. That was one of my first thoughts too. Double-checked immediately when it occured, even while still fighting to finish that one song

All I really did is simply press the transpose+ button twice, and hell begun!
The style, it's set-up, style preferences, STS's and everything else worked just fine for weeks. Neither did I load anything at all in the last two weeks. All I did was sorting my styles, sounds and settings these last 2 weeks.
All was so perfect, that I was sure to finish that job with just one keyboard.
Really have no logical explanation at all.
Still, thanks again Reuben!

[civias]

Sorry civias - my response was a bit weak !!! You have clearly done all your homework on the PA800.

I now feel similar to Reuben (John) - this doesn't sound good - how did you go with his suggestion? Although a full PA800reset should have put all the defaults back.

Cheers

Pete

Nope Pete, your response was nevertheless appreciated and I most likely would have made a similar initial response!

The thing is I am old as a fart, but got many years on my shoulders as a musician, have also been many times in my long career in far worse situations. Never panicked, always survived and finished my job!

After I formatted and reloaded OS that night during the long break, I already knew it'll be trouble. Yes Pete, it sure never sounded good for sure.

Just hope, maybe it already happened to someone else, and that one could help me! Just can't believe I could be the first lucky one lol.

Anyways, please ask whatever you need to know, if that helps solve the problem in the end.
Whoever reads this, every input is most appreciated.
Thank you guys!!!

Old man in trouble
civias

[civias]

Here my own thoughts and conclusions after a long day of trouble-shooting:

1. It definitely can't be anything that is being influenced by formatting and reloading the OS! The problem doesn't go away after these procedures!

2. It can't have anything to do with my (or any other) set, styles, style-performances, STS's, performances, sounds nor samples, because even without loading any of these the problem is there.

3. It can't be a mechanical or hardware problem, transpose buttons work just fine. Tested them excessively today. Both, left and right hand sides are being transposed accurately on every single touch. However, the right side remains always 2 full semitones (+5 fine detuning units too high)

4. Keyboard is used, but in like new condition, not even the slightest scratch visible. All worked fine for close to five weeks now, during which I did way more than 200 hours of setting and programming my stuff and repertoire. I don't use the songbook yet, nor the helicon inside, so far. Had no time yet to start programming these. But will do for sure.

5. The left hand arranger side is fully operational, correct and in tune, tested with my other keyboards. Everything else works perfectly. All intro's, specially made for my songs are in perfect tune with the rest of the arranger section. Midi files, had to download a couple for test, work perfectly too. Sample memory I left app. 4MB empty on purpose, to have some room for testing things in future.

6. Two things that keeps me puzzled:
a) When I hold let's say G Mayor in the left side, and play the melody in A Mayor (sure ain't easy) from time to time for, just a split second the let's call it "error" dissapears. But right the next moment it's back and stays for a most of the time. Like it works for 1 second out of 60 seconds as it should.
b) How come it's not exactly 2 semitones apart, where does the +5 fine detuning units come from?

Can't better describe it. Maybe someone get's an idea now!?
I'll start praying

[Rob Sherratt]

I've not been able to recreate this "problem"on my Pa2x yet. Let me know more details how to create the problem?

I often change Master Transpose before I start playing. In other words if a song is written in Bb and I'm playing with a guitarist I will transpose either down one semitone to A, or up 2 semitones to C. My Pa2x works just fine this way, the Styles and the generated chords are transposed just like I need them to be.

Note: My default setup is with no keyboard split and with chord recognition assigned to the whole keyboard range,

Some styles change the master transpose setting when you select the style. You can prevent that from happening by setting the "transpose lock" parameter in Global.

Best regards,
Rob

[karmathanever]

Hi again

started by formating and reloading newest OS from Korg website

Just want to confirm that you actually "reformatted" as per http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=38399

or did you just reload OS and Resources?

If the latter, I would strongly recommend a full factory reset as per the URL above.

Just checking....

Pete

[civias]

I've not been able to recreate this "problem"on my Pa2x yet. Let me know more details how to create the problem?

I often change Master Transpose before I start playing. In other words if a song is written in Bb and I'm playing with a guitarist I will transpose either down one semitone to A, or up 2 semitones to C. My Pa2x works just fine this way, the Styles and the generated chords are transposed just like I need them to be.

Note: My default setup is with no keyboard split and with chord recognition assigned to the whole keyboard range,

Some styles change the master transpose setting when you select the style. You can prevent that from happening by setting the "transpose lock" parameter in Global.

Best regards,
Rob

Hey Rob, thanks for your input.
I'm pretty amazed how nice and helpful people are on this forum. Should have become a member long before!!!!

If I knew how to recreate the problem I'd most likely knew the answer to my problem

Please scroll up one post, I posted my newest thoughts at the very same time your input appeared!

Btw, my master transpose is always locked!
And yes, I used in earlier years the transposer the same way like you. Very rarely though, as I worked for years with the same musicians and singers, so not much need for it.

But using it way more often lately, for let's say 2-3 years, since I started my unbeloved 1-man-band-existence! Many of the songs I sing myself now and that's why I need it more often. Let's say the good singers could sing it in a-minor! My old week voice can only go to damn gis-minor, and that's where the tranposer is handy. No sweating, no thinking!

And that's one of many reasons I decided to go in future with one keyboard. Always had a hard time, or better "hardly" the time inbetween the songs to adjust the transposer on both keyboards. Then reset on both once that song is done, if you get my point.
Sometimes I kept forgetting to reset one of them lol!
And I simply strongly feel that this keyboard with adequate samples, and it's marvelous 4x STS per Variation, each with 3 sounds per upper hands gives you a whopping 48 possible sounds for each song. Not that I really ever need more than 5-6 per song. But the great thing is being able to decide at home which sounds these gonna be and memorize. Once live, no need to think about sound selection at all.

[civias]

Hi again

started by formating and reloading newest OS from Korg website

Just want to confirm that you actually "reformatted" as per http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=38399

or did you just reload OS and Resources?

If the latter, I would strongly recommend a full factory reset as per the URL above.

Just checking....

Pete

I know you are .....
Yes I did that the day I purchased it already!
Also, while renting a PA for the whole last November, before starting my set from scratch then I formatted and reloaded OS at that time too.
I'm a very careful old guy.

Please don't forget, I tested and tweaked every style I got on my unit dozens of times in these last 4 weeks, before deciding to use it for the first time live. All worked fine at all times.

Thank you Pete

[Saswick]

Hi Civias

This happened to me once a while ago. I live on a barge and sometimes I play in the wheelhouse. On night being lazy I left the keyboard set up in the wheelhouse over night. In the morning switched on and panic, the same problem. I took the keaboard back below in the warm and after a while it restored to normal. I put the problem down to dampness over night. It has preformed perfectly ever since.

Kind Regards

Colin

[civias]

Hi Civias

This happened to me once a while ago. I live on a barge and sometimes I play in the wheelhouse. On night being lazy I left the keyboard set up in the wheelhouse over night. In the morning switched on and panic, the same problem. I took the keaboard back below in the warm and after a while it restored to normal. I put the problem down to dampness over night. It has preformed perfectly ever since.

Kind Regards

Colin

Wow, feel immediately better not being the only one!!!!
Thank you very much Colin.

Well, my problem didn't go away now for more than 48 hours
Lucky you! Still, would be having a hard time to accept it the way you did, as it could happen again at any time. I certainly would dream every night of o repeated nightmare!

Btw, it's beautyful weather here in Ontario, Canada now for more than a week. Like heaven, 30-34 Celsius, no rain at all. My keyboard is in a dry room, temperature there is like 24-25C, no aircondition used.
Had in former years trouble with the display of my EM2000, but only during very humid summer months. Funny, from Oct. to May no problems at all.

I'm sure it hasn't to do with humidity or temperature, as it happened at one specific moment in time, I been "lucky" to witness first hand

Again, thanks Colin!