Did I buy the wrong synth?

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:09 am

Now, when I purchased the R3, I was hoping for the ability to make nice, full sounds. From bright yet sunny leads, to warm but wet pads, I was hoping to assemble deep yet bright songs.

However, all I have gotten are harsh sounds. And not the good kind of harsh. Not the bassy, imma monster harsh you'd get from a moog or an 800 dv. Its the industrial, stereotypical rave harsh that sounds the same from patch to patch.

I'm hoping that the problem is the fact that I'm using a guitar amp instead of speakers/a monitor/headphones, or the fact that I haven't learned to patch yet.

I know that you shouldn't judge a synth by its presets, but the only presets I've really enjoyed are A-7, E-2, E-7, F-2, and L-2.

I originally chose the R3 because some of my favorite artists use the MK (Justice, Death Cab for Cutie, Owl City), and I figured I'd get the next step up (either the MS2000 or R3). Oh, and this Radias solo inspired me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rywUtsLSI4
I'm hoping the sounds from their would be able to be made on the R3 (obviously not played at the same times like they are in the song, but individually each patch)

I know that I won't get the richness of a Virus out of my R3, but I at least hope I can get something full, mellow or harsh. I'm really hoping its one of the problems I listed above.

ksounds · Post by **ksounds** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:11 am

Definitely try some studio reference monitors or high-end studio reference headphones before making conclusions. Guitar amps - as well as consumer stereo systems and headphones - are not designed to with accuracy in mind, so you're probably not hearing the synth as it is intended.

Allegory · Post by **Allegory** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:50 am

Since you know that an R3 is a low-powered Radias, it's reasonable to assume that it sounds about the same. It's your speakers.

For that matter, I think Radias sounds a lot fuller than Virus. It baffles me why Virus is a more popular synth.

dr_boehm · Post by **dr_boehm** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:03 am

Hi,

you can get very warm sounds out of both machines. First get a good headphone, for live even do not use the guitar amp.

Start with simple thing like 2 slightly detuned saw waves, set random pitch to 8 and put a little reverb on it. Now set filter to 24db and play with cutoff and resonance.

Then add some adsr to filter.

If you are still not enlightened try to buy a stereo tube preamp and drive it a very little bit. This does not give more warmth but more livelyness to the sound.

Bye, Dirk

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:33 pm

Allegory wrote:Since you know that an R3 is a low-powered Radias, it's reasonable to assume that it sounds about the same. It's your speakers.

For that matter, I think Radias sounds a lot fuller than Virus. It baffles me why Virus is a more popular synth.

So you're saying the Radias could create pads richer than

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oUs-EiR ... B7&index=4

1:02
?

Allegory · Post by **Allegory** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:20 pm

You seem to be trying to inject an objective criterion in where none is possible. But since you asked, yes.

tpantano wrote:
Allegory wrote:Since you know that an R3 is a low-powered Radias, it's reasonable to assume that it sounds about the same. It's your speakers.

For that matter, I think Radias sounds a lot fuller than Virus. It baffles me why Virus is a more popular synth.
So you're saying the Radias could create pads richer than

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oUs-EiR ... B7&index=4

1:02
?

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:31 pm

Allegory wrote:You seem to be trying to inject an objective criterion in where none is possible. But since you asked, yes.

tpantano wrote:
Allegory wrote:Since you know that an R3 is a low-powered Radias, it's reasonable to assume that it sounds about the same. It's your speakers.

For that matter, I think Radias sounds a lot fuller than Virus. It baffles me why Virus is a more popular synth.
So you're saying the Radias could create pads richer than

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oUs-EiR ... B7&index=4

1:02
?

An example would be nice.

Edit: not trying to sound rude. It's just I've been disappointed with the R3 a bit. I'm really hoping that its simply my amp cutting off the full range of frequencies.

Allegory · Post by **Allegory** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:04 pm

I don't recall hearing anything analogous to the Virus pad that you pointed to played on a Radias, at least not on Youtube.

It doesn't matter. It's opinion no matter what. Apples and oranges.

I think the Radias is the best synth to be had in it's particular niche. I'm glad that it isn't as popular as the Virus, since the street price has come way down (presumably due to this lack of popularity). Not everyone is going to agree, obviously.

You seemed to be sold on the Virus from the beginning. Why didn't you just hold out and get what you really wanted? If you bought an R3 new, you weren't that far off, price-wise, from a used Virus.

Still... try using a better monitor for your R3. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised.

axxim · Post by **axxim** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:30 am

Hi tpantano,

as I can read from your several posts, you are trying to get the sounds you hear from all the music what is running there. Years ago, when I heard a new synth, I thought "wow this is the best I ever heard". I remember hearing a demo of a keyboard which leave me wanting it.
Years later I got one on ebay and was very happy, but it turned to be just as usual as the others, some things were better and others not.

It is not only a matter of the sound a synth can do, it is how you play it, the expression you give and last but not least the feelings or mood in that you are. Unfortunately I am not a good keyboard player, never had studied music and my only musical skill is to have a good ear for sounds and music. If the R3 is the wrong synth or the Virus is better, I cant say because I dont have one. But I think it is like being a painting artist. There is a limited set of colors everyone can use, but it depends of how you mix and what you do with them, what style you have and what your inspiration and skills are.

If you are always looking for that sounds that others have, then you probably will go better with a mega-rompler. As for warm pads (which are my preferred sounds) I think the R3 is very good.

To finish, you really should hear and programm your synth with headphones or good monitoring boxes. A (mono?) guitar amp can't give you the spatial impression nor the complete spectrum of the sound which are the main features of a good pad, no matter what kind of synth it is.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:52 am

Allegory wrote:I don't recall hearing anything analogous to the Virus pad that you pointed to played on a Radias, at least not on Youtube.

It doesn't matter. It's opinion no matter what. Apples and oranges.

I think the Radias is the best synth to be had in it's particular niche. I'm glad that it isn't as popular as the Virus, since the street price has come way down (presumably due to this lack of popularity). Not everyone is going to agree, obviously.

You seemed to be sold on the Virus from the beginning. Why didn't you just hold out and get what you really wanted? If you bought an R3 new, you weren't that far off, price-wise, from a used Virus.

Still... try using a better monitor for your R3. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised.

Well, I've loved almost every single demo of the Radias and R3 I've heard- this being at youtube quality audio. In real life, played by the right person with the right equipment, it would likely sound even better.

Also, my point about 'analog leads' was simply me stating that, while I'd prefer nice deep, modern, ambient pads and leads, if I'm going to have classic analog leads instead I'd at least wish that the R3's would have the same power that they did in the 80s; not the boring industrial tone they take on today that my R3 seems to be leaning towards.

Oh, and with my budget, I'm lucky I could afford a secondhand R3, nevermind a new one or secondhand Virus/Radias! Being 16 I spent all my cash and plenty of hours painting a few rooms in our house

However, given the choice between a Virus or a Radias, I'd probably choose the Radias (or get the Virus, sell it, and buy a Radias with a bunch of other equipment

). I'm mainly promoting the Virus in hope that someone can come up to me, and prove to me that by choosing the Radias I'm choosing the right synth. I love the Radias in all its orange LED glory, for a variety of reasons; It's a Korg, a brand my father and many of my favorite artists hold as the best; It has amazing sound shaping capabilities especially for leads; It can create remarkably good bass and drum patterns simply with its arpeggiators; and, well, it just looks awesome.

I know that I probably am doing my R3 absolutely no justice by complaining about its presets or by playing it through a guitar amp. Hopefully, once I learn to patch decently and purchase some studio quality headphones, the little 37 key bugger will surprise me

Hi tpantano,

as I can read from your several posts, you are trying to get the sounds you hear from all the music what is running there. Years ago, when I heard a new synth, I thought "wow this is the best I ever heard". I remember hearing a demo of a keyboard which leave me wanting it.
Years later I got one on ebay and was very happy, but it turned to be just as usual as the others, some things were better and others not.

It is not only a matter of the sound a synth can do, it is how you play it, the expression you give and last but not least the feelings or mood in that you are. Unfortunately I am not a good keyboard player, never had studied music and my only musical skill is to have a good ear for sounds and music. If the R3 is the wrong synth or the Virus is better, I cant say because I dont have one. But I think it is like being a painting artist. There is a limited set of colors everyone can use, but it depends of how you mix and what you do with them, what style you have and what your inspiration and skills are.

If you are always looking for that sounds that others have, then you probably will go better with a mega-rompler. As for warm pads (which are my preferred sounds) I think the R3 is very good.

To finish, you really should hear and programm your synth with headphones or good monitoring boxes. A (mono?) guitar amp can't give you the spatial impression nor the complete spectrum of the sound which are the main features of a good pad, no matter what kind of synth it is.

Hello.

Yes, as you can see, I am frantically trying to figure out how to play the songs of my favorite artists, specifically, Owl City.

Now, there's the obvious reason for this; I'd love to be able to cover his music. I also convinced another forum member to purchase an R3, as he was also looking for Owl City covers. Both of us had been inspired to take up the keyboard by Adam Young (OC); The depth in some of his projects such as the song 'The Airway' or his band 'Insect Airport' is simply astounding. With both Adam being an insomniac and me and this other forum member having a form of it, we can relate to the dreamstate Adam creates.

But I have another reason for wanting to learn how Adam patches. Sure, Adam may make his music by using Reason for sequencing. Sure, if put in front of a piano, he may not be the worlds best player. But Adam has a skill that I find simply amazing. He can turn a small $400 box, a very low price in the music world, into a maker of masterpieces. The sounds that dominate all of his tunes are made from a very basic, two oscillator, four note polyphony mini keyboard. He shapes a tiny synth, packaged with garbage dance presets, into a machine who's melodies can shake a whole room. He doesn't need to pay $2700 for someone elses not quite perfect presets. He can do it all by himself with an MK, a 'first step' synth.

I'm hoping, that by learning how to create his patches, I will also acquire the skills needed to shape garbage into perfection. Let's face it; Wether it's the MK, R3, or Radias, presets lack emotion. They can't grab the listener by the ear and gently guide them into whatever mood the song intends to go. It's the difference, between, say, the stereotypical Linkin' Park, which all sounds the same, to the likes of Muse, an artist who can take you away to another world.

Oh, and on the topic of ROMplers and Samplers;
a ROMpler is simply like a large preset database. Sure, you can tweak the sounds a bit, but when it comes to the end, it is somebody elses work. You won't create something new; it's someone elses emotions held within each oscillator.
Samplers are the same on a larger scale. You're limited to the sounds already in the world. It's still not you; it's the worlds; wether or not it be the work of two small particles, a God, or multiple deities.
With a wave based synth, the sound is truly you. You can pour as much emotion into a patch as the synth's modeling capability allows. The sounds can be brand new, never heard before in this world that we inhabit.

axxim · Post by **axxim** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:25 pm

Hi again,

But Adam has a skill that I find simply amazing. He can turn a small $400 box, a very low price in the music world, into a maker of masterpieces. The sounds that dominate all of his tunes are made from a very basic, two oscillator, four note polyphony mini keyboard. He shapes a tiny synth, packaged with garbage dance presets, into a machine who's melodies can shake a whole room.

so you are confirming what I told you, It is not only the synth capabilities, rather the skills of patching and playing it. So the R3 has the oscillators, filters and other effects you say Adam's synth has. Of course a ROMpler will save you the effort, but a synth will give you the versatility. So you have to take a decision which way you want to go. Forget the presets, they are only used to show the synth capabilities and are very dependent from who made them and on what is the actual mainstream. Just figure out you were a synth developer and have to fill 128 patches with sounds! They probably would be good, but certainly they wouldn't be of everyones taste. If you take for example the GM-Standard, probably 30% or more of these sounds will be of no use for you and/or for me, but for others these 30% will be very different ones.

The first sounds I created with my R3 were pad and vocoder sounds becaus the onboard ones were not all of my taste. Next came some e-pianos and some other SE-sounds just for fun or on petition, like that strawbery(?) for you. I have very little time for this and lately I am more answering posts than creating sounds, but it also has to do with inspiration which in the moment is very low.

You also can download the different available patches and libraries and assemble your own favourite library. Use the others patches to modify them to your taste or create new ones.

At last, being 16 you have time enough to learn and get skilled in this. If you really want to go this way you should be more patient and take your time to learn the things you want to master one day. I don't know how this Adam managed it, but probably he invested more time in this than we can imagine and afford.

How about this challenge: Tell me a link to the pad-sound you would like or think the R3 can't do and I will try to recreate it. If I get it, I'll send you a sample of it and then you have to programm it yourself!

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:14 pm

axxim wrote:How about this challenge: Tell me a link to the pad-sound you would like or think the R3 can't do and I will try to recreate it. If I get it, I'll send you a sample of it and then you have to programm it yourself!

That was what I as looking for all along and was essentially the purpose of this thread

Alright, how about 1:04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqAQ4zrYAHE ?
or maybe the beginning to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zXBdpA-3L0 ?

Only do one if you have the time

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:26 am

tpantano wrote:Alright, how about 1:04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqAQ4zrYAHE ?

There's a patch on the Radias called AnaStringEns (patch number F11) which is pretty much identical to the Virus' PadingsRP. I have a Virus with Padings RP loaded up sitting next to my Radias. Just increase the amp attack of AnaStringEns from 32 to 67, and they're almost indistinguishable.

The R3 and Radias are very similar so you should be in luck.

axxim · Post by **axxim** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:30 pm

Hi tpantano,

here is a sample (mp3) of the sound I programmed similar to the "virus-pad" you linked. The hardest work for me was to figure out the chords used on that video....

http://www.net4ces.de/media/Stringpad.mp3

Now it is your turn to try programming this sound

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:33 am

axxim wrote:Hi tpantano,

here is a sample (mp3) of the sound I programmed similar to the "virus-pad" you linked. The hardest work for me was to figure out the chords used on that video....

http://www.net4ces.de/media/Stringpad.mp3

Now it is your turn to try programming this sound

Überraschen!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, wicked sick. You've renewed my hope for the R3

So, any hints

? Maybe what Wave or Effects you'd used? In that way I'd have to figure out the filters, effect values, Envelopes, etc. to figure out but I'd be started on the right path