Temporary withdrawal of support for Korg Pa products

[miden]

Hi Rob...sure no probs..I will go in the same order you had..

a) user styles on the tyros were not that difficult even for a beginner imo, on the sd1+, a nightmare, very fiddly as there are no software programs to enable intuitive and prompt editing. In the end I didn't even bother with the sd1+.. of course for the yamaha there are several software programs available to choose from which make these tasks pretty simple.

b) storage of them was not really an issue fpr the sd1+ or the tyros with a hdd, however as for management, well for me, it was pretty much non-existent. I just selected what I wanted at the time on an ad hoc basis.
But always within the confines of a set. On bothe the tyros and SD, factory positions can not be overwritten vis-a-vis the PA series (one of their best features imo!!)

c)The sd1+ was not too bad in this as you could setup favourite styles/sounds and have these assigned to one of the ten tabs available, and then it had different pages of these 10 tabs so setting up specific styles and sounds could be done. On the tyros it was just setting up registrations which was pretty much the same thing just a LOT easier.


d)easy enough for me using registrations on the tyros (but an "awkward" system in implementation) I didn't really find this function on the sd1+.

Although you could save data to user folders on the SD and then recall these later.

As for destroying linkages on teh PA series, I find that if all the sounds I want are setup in the user area (this takes FOREVER to do but only done once), even when a new resources file is loaded, I just re-load the backed up user and style stuff, and off we go again with everything as it was.

Example I have every factory and user style setup with NO keyboard parts at all. This I have backed up. When I loaded resources 3.00 I simply re-loaded my backup and all my tweaked styles were put right back where they were.

as an aside, I have always said the Songbook function on the PA series is nearly worth the price of the keyboard for a live player, no other and I mean NONE, comes even close to the ease of use and practicality of the Korg Songbook.

e) AFAIK, no for the sd1+ and going by the enormous 3rd party support for Yamaha it would have to be a yes!!

Rob, for mine, Korg is the absolute best when it comes to a keyboard that covers all the bases and does it well.

It is equal last with Ketron in the area of factory aftermarket support, and the provision of data for others to improve systems. (Interesting they are both based in Italy!!! The Italians are quite "laid back" in my experience lol).

Hope the above ( sorry if I rambled a bit!!) is useful to add to what you already know and assists in your choice for moving forward.

Cheers
Dennis

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Bachus, Rikki and Dennis,

Thank you very much for your helpful replies. I guess time will tell whether Nedim sorts out Ketron, but at the moment from what you've said, Ketron is not for me. Yamaha T3 might be a possibility, esp if there is a 76 notes version. Again I will wait and see. Meantime it looks like the Pa2x is the state of the art even though style and sound management is so damned difficult to achieve.

[miden]

Rob, yvw..
Yes I have to agree it is...if I had the cash I would have a PA2x in an instant.

Btw, I wouldn't hold out much hope of ANY 76 note PSR/Tyros. From what I have read in other forums 61 is "de rigeur" for any yamaha arranger board, into the distant future.

Cheers
Dennis

[Rob Sherratt]

Dear Gentlemen,

At Korg and Korg Italy we have been following the discussions going on the various Korg forums because we believe that it’s not only important but even incumbent for us to have an open windows for the real Korg users. We believe in honest feedback and suggestions for our products.

Our policy has always been to try to give more flexibility and power to our products and therefore to our users. In addition, regular periodical O.S. releases bear witness our commitment to a constant improvement of our products.

Having said that, no-one could be sorrier than we are about what we believe is a misunderstanding between Rob Sherratt and some people here in Korg Italy regarding the topic “Temporary withdrawal of support for Korg Pa products”. We really hope that Rob will change his mind and continues with his valuable support to this forum.

In these days our laboratory is strongly working on a new O.S. release that will give to you all some stunning new and important features for Pa800 and Pa2X Pro and consequently it’s impossible for us to give any support to any external software developer. It’s not that we want to keep our format secret or things like that, it’s only that due to the complexity of our software architecture it’s extremely difficult to put anyone in condition to develop any tool for our keyboards, and we believe “impossible” for occasional programmers. It would mean months of training and a lot of time to dedicate to produce an exhaustive documentation. In addition, we cannot spare anyone currently on staff because they are so busy with new operating systems and new products. Loaning someone out would not be a simple, easy or fast task. Please believe us on this – we do not exist to cause problems for dedicated Korg supporters.

The solution to that could be a much more “detectable” format in the years to come but we can assure you all that we are seriously considering an overall simplification of our system, both in terms of user interface or innovative features.

Sometimes we are forced to make a choice, we are forced to decide to give priority to one thing rather than something else and this may displease someone or some people. What we can guarantee is that we’ll always take your suggestions under serious consideration and will always monitor this forum. However we want you all to know that Korg relies on a complex network of distributors and dealers all around the world and occasionally it can happen that the feedback we get from them doesn’t really overlap with the need of some of you.

We are confident that once this misunderstanding is cleared, that you all could continue to put your trust in our company. From our side, we will never leave you behind (unlike many competitors do after the purchase). We believe in keeping your keyboards upgraded as often as we can with new important features that will help you to make a better music. This is always our main goal and our first inspiration: music!

Thanks you in advance for your understanding.

Korg Italy

Dear Paolo and Korg Italy,

I apologise for the time taken to write this reply.

Unfortunately, no "new features" in any forthcoming OS will cause me to recommend the Korg Pa products without reservations, because in my opinion the following important advertised claims are not met in the Pa2x (and Pa800) products presently available:

a) "easy to use",
b) "foolproof experience"
c) "up to 256 user sounds"
d) "the full featured internal Sampler can load ... the largest sample library available ... into the standard 128MB of added memory (expandable to 256MB)"
e) "The Pa2X Pro also features professional editing facilities ... import the audio data into a Style so you can create some of the coolest rhythms imaginable"

With respect, I think I might be justified in accusing Korg of mis-advertising. This is because when users load more than one SET file containing user sounds and styles and performances - the functionality just doesn't work. The links from styles and performances to user sounds get broken and so the styles and performances will not play correctly. Also the styles and performances are almost impossible to repair manually. It is certainly not an "easy to use" or a "foolproof experience". Korg employ many musicians yourselves and yet there is no solution or work around for these problems.

There is no misunderstanding on my part. The problems in configuring new styles and sounds on the keyboard has been, and remains a huge disappointment for me as a Pa keyboard owner and musician. How can I in good conscience continue to be a 100% Korg enthusiast on Korg Forums when I consider that the company is guilty of mis-advertising?

I still think the Korg Pa2x is a better arranger keyboard than Ketron or Yamaha will ever deliver. I would be very surprised if ever Yamaha or Ketron launched a good arranger/sampler keyboard with 76 keys that has better on-board capabilities than the Pa2x. So I will stay with Korg products, but I will also pray that the company's project managers will recognise that this problem is very serious.

Also there are a number of us on Korg Forums who are willing to work very hard (without charge) to improve things for musicians using Korg Pa keyboards. But we need a certain amount of help and encouragement and co-operation from Korg itself to prevent us from becoming disillusioned. We know that Jurgen (the developer of "Guitar Mode") and Mr Dee (the developer of XPROData's twin-Pa2x-based organ) have access to much internal information about Korg file formats and the compression algorithms. But they are unable to release the information to other people because of non-disclosure agreements. So, would Korg please ask Mr Dee and Jurgen to cooperate with MickB about the compresion algorithm so that Mick can develop the full versions of the PC software (XRM and PRM etc) and fix these problems?

Also, you say that Korg will "simplify" your system in future and you believe this will be a solution to the broken styles/ performances linking to user sounds. With respect, the capabilities of the Pa keyboards are already so complex and I think that Korg will never simplify the file formats. The only thing that happens with time is that disorder increases, not the opposite. The only hope is to make the details of the present compression algorithm available to the users so that we can take steps to fixthe broken styles and performances ourselves.

It is also slightly offensive for Korg to say "it’s extremely difficult to put anyone in condition to develop any tool for our keyboards, and we believe <<impossible>> for occasional programmers". The fact that MickB has been able to substantially develop the XRM and PRM software should convince Korg to revise your opinion of the capabilities of certainly at least one very skilled user who is a developer represented on this forum. It would be easy to put MickB into a position where he completes the development. Just release Jurgen and Mr Dee from their NDA's and allow them and Mick to speak together.

[kbrkr]

Rob,

Great response. As a Pa2xpro owner, I think your words echo mine exactly. I come from the Yamaha arranger world and I am appalled at the style format and lack of utilities available for the product.

For this reason I am seriously considering moving away from the Korg PA series and to other manufacturers.

Thanks for going to bat for us. Its very appreciated.

[Rob Sherratt]

Rob, Great response. As a Pa2xpro owner, I think your words echo mine exactly. I come from the Yamaha arranger world and I am appalled at the style format and lack of utilities available for the product. For this reason I am seriously considering moving away from the Korg PA series and to other manufacturers. Thanks for going to bat for us. Its very appreciated.

Hi kbrkr,

Trouble is that alternatives may not be better. It has to be said that Yamaha styles and sounds do not have the same problem. But I really need the 76 keys and the great key action of the Pa2x. For me the best solution would be a Korg Pa2x in which this style/sound management fault is fixed.

[miden]

+1

[Lee]

Korg,
With respect...
I have a PAXPRO. I TOTALLY AGREE with Rob.
I also agree you guys could be in a position of false advertising!
Why not get this taken care of???? We all know it is not a big deal for you to do so. Some high level manager in Japan is just stubborn!
It's the Honorable thing to do.

If you do not soon take care of this, then I among others will feel you do not want to for this reason. YOU DO NOT WANT OTHER MFG"S OR USERS TO BE ABLED TO WORK WITH THE PA STYLES, in order to PROTECT THEM.
If this is true...wake up as Yamaha, Roland, Ketron etc DO NOT NEED THEM. They are doing quite well with thousands (Yamaha) of styles and more each day.

We are very capable of understanding the compression algorythms and writing the programs. I write code for manfacturing machines and microcode for IBM hardware systems (some pretty heavy programming) so I personally know it's no big deal (yes, some work).

Rob,
A simple solution to the 76 keys is to add a high quality, light weight, 76 key MIDI keyboad under the arranger. ( I can send you photos of how well this works and you then have the 76 and 61 on top.

I have done this with a Yamaha T2 and it works superb. So if you at some point down the line want to switch to the new T3, then this will give you the 76. (and eve more flexibility). It is not that big of deal to take the extra board along.

Depending on what happens here... there is a good chance I will go with the T3 with the 76 under it. Not my first choice, But it is a choice.
It would be a shame as I really like the PA and think Korg has done a super job so far.

I would rather keep with the PA as I think it offers so much in function and sound quality...but the Audya and T3 are comming SOON!

In summary...Korg made this mess by compressing the file formats... they need to get it solved. My gosh we are not even asking them to provide the program, just give us what we need to develop it ourselves!

The more I think of it I think they are trying to protect their style DATA...if so I'm out of here!

I have written a letter to Sweetwater Sound about this, and to Bobby Nelson frm KorgUSA who I met at the latest Sweetwater Gearfest. Sweetwater is a HUGE dealer for Korg.

I even told them if this isn't resolved soon I would like a full refund as Korg has a problem in the PA series and have said they are not going to fix it in the near future!

Lee

[robkeith]

I agree with all of the above said, and I'm hoping that Korg are going to release a major upgrade when the T3 and Audya are officially released. I wish that they would not wait for this to happen, but start releasing needed fixes now, to further enhance and make this board the PA2X pro all that it should be. I'm sure that Korg are protecting thier algorithms, that is thier perogative, but a purchaser also has the same right when he or she decides to change to another brand. The problem is that, it is allways some time before they return to you, or maybe never. So please Korg/Mr Trammannoni, do the right thing and lets get moving now before purchasers rightly so, start to articulate legal rights to enforce the consumer codes of advertising a false premise or not being able to deliver on aspects that were advertised

[Rob Sherratt]

Dear friends in Korg,

Another thing to consider is that there are now some professional musicians (eg Chris Whitehead and Darren) starting to develop new professional styles for the Pa2x/ Pa800/ Pa500/ Pa588. They are forced by Korg to make the decision not to supply any user sounds or user drumkits because of the fault in the Korg OS that causes user styles linked to user sounds not to work.

I would far rather that the problem was fixed so that I can become a 100% Korg enthusiast and Korg suporter once again. Professional musicians and developers of new styles would far rather the problem was fixed so that they can also develop new user sounds and new user drumkits to go with the new styles they are working on.

So you see that the present Korg policy is damaging your own market for the Pa keyboards. Your present policy prevents the Korg products from reaching their full potential, because it limits the amount of support your products get from professional musicians, and it gives the advantage to Yamaha who do not have this problem with user styles and user sounds.

I really hope that the Korg project management team will confirm that fixing this problem will be the number 1 priority before the next OS release. Unless this is fixed I think people will switch to Yamaha. No amount of new "gee whizz" functionality in any new OS will make any difference, if the basic capabilities of the product can not be used. Users are not stupid, and are easily disillusioned and can become litigious if advertised claims for the product are not met.

I therefore hope that Korg will decide to publish a different kind of response on this thread to reassure all users that this problem in the Pa series of products is being given a priority. We are all looking for a promised release date for a solution, together with details of how the problem will be resolved. The information provided by Paolo to date gives us no reasurrances about solving this problem whatever.

[Arash]

Rob: In a very short sentence, your sense of logics, wisdom, intelligence, technical ability, humble attitude, and professional integrity are amazing. It could not be said any better. Thanks for speaking on behalf of many of us.
Best, Arash

[AVI6520]

DEAR ROB-

Thanks for speaking for many of us!
Good work!

KORG- Do you realy want to make the PA's "THE best" "and "the easy" ?!

[Jackpote]

+1

I totally agree with all of the above said.

Many thanks at you all !

Best regards

[m3styles]

Dear Korg,

I totally agree with said above! I have a good experience with Korg's product support so far (I also have Karma), so I really hope you provide us with tools mentioned.

Marko

[sehasafade12]

Hello everyone:


I do agree with you all %100. Korg needs to wake-up and smell the Coffee. Korg Pa system really sucks when it comes to loading customized sets. Korg, are you listening? Do something about this issue and please no promises and lies. Just do it.......

Best Regards,

Fahim,