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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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 Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | Why do you say that? |
Let's say someone has an original Kronos and the motherboard dies. Since the original D510 motherboard is no longer available to Korg Service Centers, a current motherboard and a bunch of other parts to make that work need to be ordered... plus labor (at least $175, probably more).
According to the service notes on motherboard replacement, here's what's necessary to repair it:
| Quote: | Replacement Parts List Summary
Part Number Category Part Name Notes
200002189801 MOTHER BOARD BLKD525MW
500002191100 MEMORY MODULE SO-DIMM SMD-N2G68H1P-13H
200109263008 Boot Support BOARD
500475004186 HARNESS HARNESS FOR ENO-1612(D525MW)
500641042208 Side Chassis X11150 SideChassis-R C30849-6 * 61 Only
500630042661 Shield sheet X11151 MB SHIELD2 F41788 * 73/88 Only (Order 2) |
The total cost for all of those parts PLUS the hourly rate for service will be quite a bit more expensive than a handful of sound libraries and $40 for a drop in replacement motherboard.
-Mc |
I understand you are applying your experience and that amounts to be a sort of 'what if ' DIY to other kronos owners. You also spent considerable time trying to self diagnose your kronos issue. For many of us several hours of time spent like that has economic cost.
Logic tells me that your issue with the Mobo does not have to automatically apply to other owners. It's much more likely kronos owners will experience no component failure. And if there is a small chance of component failure it could be a lower cost component
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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enigmahack
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 727
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA (Eh?)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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I see both sides.
For me personally, the K2 comes with an industrial-class motherboard from ASROCK, so the likelyhood of a failure is "in theory" less than a consumer grade board. I mean, it could still happen either way, but I'm pretty sure the components in an industrial board are moreso intended to have a high duty cycle + Longevity. I'd be curious to see in retrospect (Say, 5 years from now) how well it held up compared to the D510/525.
_________________
Korg Kronos 88 2, Korg Kronos 73, Kurzweil K2600S
Sound developer, custom sound designer and trainer/Kronos support - www.audora.ca for details! |
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Rich Z
Full Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2010
Posts: 155
Location: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| enigmahack wrote: | I'll do my best to answer to my understanding. *Anyone who knows better, please correct me if incorrect.*
Thank you for the lengthy reply.
| Rich Z wrote: |
When a program or combi in a library is purchased, are they blocked in any way from the purchaser being able to thoroughly inspect the methods by which they have been created while loaded into the Kronos?
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Nope. You have complete access to them. In theory, anyone with a Kronos 2 could share samples with Kronos 1 users. It would be laborious and difficult, but could be done. Not all sounds are synthesis, some are samples and that's where the copyright stuff comes in too. I mean, some sounds are just building using the VA1, but some aren't and require special samples.
It's tough to say - I'm not a lawyer, but I would imagine that there's a certain amount of copyright involved in sound creation in that if there's a specific percent of perimeters copied, then it might be considered plagiarism. I don't think so though to be honest. How do you copyright something like that where someone else could literally actually stumble upon those settings entirely by accident.
I guess I could ask my trademark attorney about this, but I would fear a lengthy answer as he charges a LOT per hour. It is interesting that character fonts cannot be copyrighted, trademarked, nor patented, but the NAMES used to identify each font set ARE protected. I'm thinking that the same might apply to these programs and combis. It may not actually be the sound, nor the method to implement the sound on any given hardware/software combo, but what you actually CALL it that would be protected. Unless a single specific sound was considered as an identifiable trademark of a particular company, meaning anyone who heard that specific sound would reasonably associate it with a particular company, then I doubt it could be protected via copyright, trademark, nor patent. As for an entire library of individual sounds, the chances would be slim to none, in my non-attorney opinion.
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So about the sounds and combis, both stock that come with the Kronos, and those that are provided via libraries, once they are in the Kronos, can they be backed up and saved to a removable USB drive? If so, once saved, can they be reloaded as needed? Suppose I were to modify either a stock program or combi or a program or combi provided in a commercial library, can I save my modified program or combi to a USB drive for safe keeping?
How about samples? When I create my own samples, can I save them to a removable USB harddrive? In the cases of libraries that utilize samples provided with the libraries, can they be backup up as well?
Obviously I'm trying to determine what exactly prevents an owner of a commercial library from being able to protect themselves and their purchased property by being restricted from taking reasonable precautions like they should for anything they create themselves on the Kronos to back up that data for safe keeping. The ability to back up such data certainly implies that if there is a catastrophic failure in their Kronos, that they would be able to repair or replace their keyboard, then recover their own hard work by copying FROM the backup into the new or repaired Kronos.
So what is to prevent someone from simply backing up the components that make up a commercial library for safe keeping?
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | | Logic tells me that your issue with the Mobo does not have to automatically apply to other owners. It's much more likely kronos owners will experience no component failure. And if there is a small chance of component failure it could be a lower cost component |
When my Mobo failed, I thought it was a rare isolated issue until I started researching it and found a LOT of people's Kronos suffered the same fate. I even found a thread on here where someone asked about a class action lawsuit. Whether or not the lawsuit is ridiculous, it certainly backs up the notion that this isn't THAT rare of an issue.
If nobody suffers a MoBo failure and are certain they never, ever, ever will they should feel free to purchase all of the libraries they'd like. But in the event they do, they have two options, get it repaired as I stated above for $600+ or repair it themselves for $40. I'm QUITE certain that NO authorized Korg service center will do a repair on a Kronos using an ebay board and they certainly won't warranty their work on an externally sourced part. They will ONLY use approved parts that are available to them through official channels. The 510 is DEFINITELY no longer available from Korg parts and the parts list I posted above is the authorized path to repair.
I was fortunate enough to find 2 new in box for about $40 each. I would not recommend home repair for most musicians or keyboard players. I've been doing electronics repair and modding for decades *AND* live so far from any qualified/authorized place that does service I have no other choice.
-Mc
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Rich Z wrote: | | enigmahack wrote: | I'll do my best to answer to my understanding. *Anyone who knows better, please correct me if incorrect.*
Thank you for the lengthy reply.
| Rich Z wrote: |
When a program or combi in a library is purchased, are they blocked in any way from the purchaser being able to thoroughly inspect the methods by which they have been created while loaded into the Kronos?
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Nope. You have complete access to them. In theory, anyone with a Kronos 2 could share samples with Kronos 1 users. It would be laborious and difficult, but could be done. Not all sounds are synthesis, some are samples and that's where the copyright stuff comes in too. I mean, some sounds are just building using the VA1, but some aren't and require special samples.
It's tough to say - I'm not a lawyer, but I would imagine that there's a certain amount of copyright involved in sound creation in that if there's a specific percent of perimeters copied, then it might be considered plagiarism. I don't think so though to be honest. How do you copyright something like that where someone else could literally actually stumble upon those settings entirely by accident.
I guess I could ask my trademark attorney about this, but I would fear a lengthy answer as he charges a LOT per hour. It is interesting that character fonts cannot be copyrighted, trademarked, nor patented, but the NAMES used to identify each font set ARE protected. I'm thinking that the same might apply to these programs and combis. It may not actually be the sound, nor the method to implement the sound on any given hardware/software combo, but what you actually CALL it that would be protected. Unless a single specific sound was considered as an identifiable trademark of a particular company, meaning anyone who heard that specific sound would reasonably associate it with a particular company, then I doubt it could be protected via copyright, trademark, nor patent. As for an entire library of individual sounds, the chances would be slim to none, in my non-attorney opinion.
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So about the sounds and combis, both stock that come with the Kronos, and those that are provided via libraries, once they are in the Kronos, can they be backed up and saved to a removable USB drive? If so, once saved, can they be reloaded as needed? Suppose I were to modify either a stock program or combi or a program or combi provided in a commercial library, can I save my modified program or combi to a USB drive for safe keeping?
How about samples? When I create my own samples, can I save them to a removable USB harddrive? In the cases of libraries that utilize samples provided with the libraries, can they be backup up as well?
Obviously I'm trying to determine what exactly prevents an owner of a commercial library from being able to protect themselves and their purchased property by being restricted from taking reasonable precautions like they should for anything they create themselves on the Kronos to back up that data for safe keeping. The ability to back up such data certainly implies that if there is a catastrophic failure in their Kronos, that they would be able to repair or replace their keyboard, then recover their own hard work by copying FROM the backup into the new or repaired Kronos.
So what is to prevent someone from simply backing up the components that make up a commercial library for safe keeping?
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Download any Korg sample library and install it as a demo and you will see. The samples keep fading in and out until they are authorized in the dedicated section of the global menu. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | GregC wrote: | | Logic tells me that your issue with the Mobo does not have to automatically apply to other owners. It's much more likely kronos owners will experience no component failure. And if there is a small chance of component failure it could be a lower cost component |
When my Mobo failed, I thought it was a rare isolated issue until I started researching it and found a LOT of people's Kronos suffered the same fate. I even found a thread on here where someone asked about a class action lawsuit. Whether or not the lawsuit is ridiculous, it certainly backs up the notion that this isn't THAT rare of an issue.
If nobody suffers a MoBo failure and are certain they never, ever, ever will they should feel free to purchase all of the libraries they'd like. But in the event they do, they have two options, get it repaired as I stated above for $600+ or repair it themselves for $40. I'm QUITE certain that NO authorized Korg service center will do a repair on a Kronos using an ebay board and they certainly won't warranty their work on an externally sourced part. They will ONLY use approved parts that are available to them through official channels. The 510 is DEFINITELY no longer available from Korg parts and the parts list I posted above is the authorized path to repair.
I was fortunate enough to find 2 new in box for about $40 each. I would not recommend home repair for most musicians or keyboard players. I've been doing electronics repair and modding for decades *AND* live so far from any qualified/authorized place that does service I have no other choice.
-Mc |
First of all, again, I agree that the library policy is ridiculous. However I feel you're painting an unfair picture.
1. Where are you getting the "$600+" figure? Is this an official quote you got? It doesn't seem entirely impossible but you're being a bit adamant and it's not clear what you're basing it on.
2. You're disregarding the cost of libraries completely now. They could add up to 500 bucks with even just two of them.
3. It was not forty bucks, you bought a power supply too IIRC, and you spent countless hours measuring, fixing, plus calling, emailing and posting to try and ascertain the actual issue and procure the parts.
Again, I fully appreciate why you did this but I don't think you're making your point any better by overstating your case. Thanks for the warning that you wouldn't recommend this to just anyone. I think that's important in a place like this. |
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Ottawa58
Full Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Posts: 182
Location: Ottawa Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: Sending complaints about library transferability |
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I not an expert on the kronos or its libraries. However, I worked for many years in a large corporation, and I do know how to complain.
Unfortunately, sending an email to complain about something, like an unfair library policy is easy. But it's also ineffective. Emails get handled (if at all) by relatively junior customer service type folks. And they rarely see light of day, not to mention get to an executive that can do something about changing a policy. Several people here have remarked that there have been no answers to their emails. I'm not surprised. Telephone calls are the same, and rarely make it past level one in a call centre.
What throws them for a loop is an old fashioned printed letter, in an envelope with a stamp. It takes a bit more effort, but when it gets to the company mailroom addressed to the president, they quite often get through to people upstairs. Or at least their assistants. And while an email is easy to delete, people find it harder to shred your letter. Simply put, written letters are way more effective.
So if you feel strongly about this, and want to be heard, send a physical letter to Korg. Your chances of action are much better. |
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enigmahack
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
Posts: 727
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA (Eh?)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Sending complaints about library transferability |
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| Ottawa58 wrote: | I not an expert on the kronos or its libraries. However, I worked for many years in a large corporation, and I do know how to complain.
Unfortunately, sending an email to complain about something, like an unfair library policy is easy. But it's also ineffective. Emails get handled (if at all) by relatively junior customer service type folks. And they rarely see light of day, not to mention get to an executive that can do something about changing a policy. Several people here have remarked that there have been no answers to their emails. I'm not surprised. Telephone calls are the same, and rarely make it past level one in a call centre.
What throws them for a loop is an old fashioned printed letter, in an envelope with a stamp. It takes a bit more effort, but when it gets to the company mailroom addressed to the president, they quite often get through to people upstairs. Or at least their assistants. And while an email is easy to delete, people find it harder to shred your letter. Simply put, written letters are way more effective.
So if you feel strongly about this, and want to be heard, send a physical letter to Korg. Your chances of action are much better. |
As someone who's worked in head offices of some large corporations, I have to COMPLETELY agree with this.
_________________
Korg Kronos 88 2, Korg Kronos 73, Kurzweil K2600S
Sound developer, custom sound designer and trainer/Kronos support - www.audora.ca for details! |
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Rich Z
Full Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2010
Posts: 155
Location: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: |
Download any Korg sample library and install it as a demo and you will see. The samples keep fading in and out until they are authorized in the dedicated section of the global menu. |
Thanks, but no thanks. If there is some sort of copy protection associated with these libraries, I certainly don't want any potential remnant contamination of my SSD of such code.
But surely someone has at least TRIED what I have asked about? |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | First of all, again, I agree that the library policy is ridiculous. However I feel you're painting an unfair picture.
1. Where are you getting the "$600+" figure? Is this an official quote you got? It doesn't seem entirely impossible but you're being a bit adamant and it's not clear what you're basing it on.
2. You're disregarding the cost of libraries completely now. They could add up to 500 bucks with even just two of them.
3. It was not forty bucks, you bought a power supply too IIRC, and you spent countless hours measuring, fixing, plus calling, emailing and posting to try and ascertain the actual issue and procure the parts.
Again, I fully appreciate why you did this but I don't think you're making your point any better by overstating your case. Thanks for the warning that you wouldn't recommend this to just anyone. I think that's important in a place like this. |
1. I'm being adamant because when I *FIRST* found the Kronos died, I contacted the nearest support center and asked them about ordering a new motherboard. Found out they were no longer available, got a list of the needed parts, an estimate on how much all of those would cost and a rough quote for an hourly rate - with a couple hour minimum. Since it's out of warranty, EVERY second costs money, even if they don't get it fixed. $600 is on the low side since that doesn't include any significant troubleshooting, which they had to do before ordering any parts. The nearest service center has ZERO parts on hand and have less experience fixing Korg gear than I do.
2. MOST of the libraries are way under $250. I would bet that the most popular ones being sold are the sub $100 and possibly the sub $50 libraries. The Japanese and German pianos on the Kronos and Kronos X still sound fantastic. Most will not buy the new piano.
3. It cost me $40 to fix it. I could have returned the power supply but chose to keep it since I knew it could be difficult to get later as well as buying a 3rd MOBO for the same reason. Time isn't a factor since I don't gig it, have plenty of other keyboards to use, and the time to get it repaired at a service center may not have been any sooner. Since I ENJOY electronics and troubleshooting, I enjoy working on it. In the troubleshooting process, I got a chance to clean out the dust, secure all cables, do some diagnostics testing (and info gathering for a future hack), and a few other things. I chose to detail everything in the thread so others having the issue would have reference information. BTW, confirmed price on getting just the power supply replaced is over $350 if there's no troubleshooting involved.
Regardless, the info above is went into MY decision for not buying the protected libraries. I could care less if anyone approves or agrees. But the point still stands, as long as they are tied to the motherboard (a product which DOES have documented failures) and can not be reauthorized by a user to a replacement Kronos or MOBO, I and others will not purchase them. If I knew that once I bought a library I would always have it on whatever Kronos I owned, I'd have purchased several by now for sure.
-Mc
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Sending complaints about library transferability |
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| Ottawa58 wrote: | | So if you feel strongly about this, and want to be heard, send a physical letter to Korg. Your chances of action are much better. |
In 99.99% of situations I'd agree with you. Korg is a little different because they have always had great support on user forums by people with authority. Dan and Rich have quite a bit of influence and are also Korg users as well. Our feedback is heard more than many believe. This is one of the reasons I stick with Korg gear. Back in the day, I had an issue with the behavior of the Triton classic. Jerry K (I miss his presence BTW) disagreed with my issue and most other people thought I was nuts. I explained how to replicate it and a couple scenarios where it was an issue and the very next OS release they fixed the issue and have kept it fixed for all future synths. I also complained on a forum about 3 defective Tritons (when I first bought it) I got from the same Sam Ash (I think they were dropped at the Sam Ash warehouse) and Jerry had one sent to me directly from Korg because I needed it for summer NAMM. I should have had him sign it.
Dan and Rich (and I'm sure there are others from Korg here) don't live in a bubble. They give feedback at Korg with what the general hubbub is, even if they don't agree with it. I'm fine with this. It also makes for great nerd discussions when there's nothing on TV.
True story: I called Korg Support to ask a technical question and when I was done with the question, the first thing the Korg rep says is, "Is this McHale? Hey. I saw your thread about this." So yah, I'm good with this.
-Mc
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha).
Last edited by McHale on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Rich Z wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: |
Download any Korg sample library and install it as a demo and you will see. The samples keep fading in and out until they are authorized in the dedicated section of the global menu. |
Thanks, but no thanks. If there is some sort of copy protection associated with these libraries, I certainly don't want any potential remnant contamination of my SSD of such code.
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No additional code is installed with libraries. The copy protection is built into the main KRONOS OS.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough, McHale. For a hobbying electronics guy with a few of the cheaper libraries (or none at all) it is quite understandable. I thought the whole argument centered around the price of the libraries being unfair with respect to possible replacement cost, so obviously that involves the more expensive libraries. There are plenty of expensive ones, not just the Korg piano. If a library is only fifty bucks it's not as big of an issue, according to some people in this thread.
And FWIW, I think the libraries without samples aren't protected at all so you could just copy them over. I could be wrong since I don't actually own any. But I don't think there is any kind of copy protection mechanism for PCGs in the Kronos. |
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Ottawa58
Full Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Posts: 182
Location: Ottawa Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Sending complaints about library transferability |
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| McHale wrote: | | Ottawa58 wrote: | | So if you feel strongly about this, and want to be heard, send a physical letter to Korg. Your chances of action are much better. |
In 99.99% of situations I'd agree with you. Korg is a little different because they have always had great support on user forums by people with authority.
-Mc |
Mc - It's great that you have had positive experiences with Korg support on this forum. However, a couple of points that I see personally:
- This is an international forum with people from all over the world on it. I have sent two emails to Korg Canada, weeks ago, with simple questions as a new customer; and have received no reply - not even to say they received them and will respond. Others on this forum commented about the lack of email response.
- If there are Korg reps on this site, with authority, then why don't they weigh in on Korg's behalf on the library transfer issue? This is obviously a policy question bothering many customers. The silence is deafening. Has the issue been raised upstairs at Korg headquarters? Is the policy being looked at by Korg, or is the current policy final?
- Another point: the new Berlin grand certainly has received tons of hype and marketing from Korg. Yet, on this forum, some very good material has called into question something as fundamental as tuning. And several people have responded that the Berlin grand sounds off. Not just one person. Where's the Korg response? Is the tuning correct? Is it off on purpose?
Yes, there seems to be lots of support on technical issues like how the motherboard is set up, for example, or how to do something technically, - but very sparse information on policy issues that are important to so many people on this forum. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Dan, Rich and up to some extent Jack Hotop and Stephen Kay who have all worked for or done work for Korg as a rule don't comment on matters of policy. My best guess is that they are not allowed to do so or it would be considered very bad form. So apparently this is the official line.
I don't have the Berlin but an equal amount of people have said they really like it. The width of tuning is a very personal thing.
I have had mixed experiences with the local Korg distributor as well, so I do underscore your point about the international community. |
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