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sunriser111671
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Michigan USA
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 Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| tomtomheaven wrote: | I am more and more interested by your software...
Can you explain your method? specs? etc...
I agree Sharp with the fact that triton has much more PCG files to convert than Krome...
So, what about a Triton to Kronos (or Krome  ) converter?
In fact, if I had the PCG specifications , I would develop Triton to Krome converter...
Thank you,
Cyph |
The method is pretty easy:
I got the specs from Korg for the PCG format/SysEx parameter data and created a parser for the program bank data in the Krome PCG to a custom object in my code. Using a spreadsheet, I created a lookup table between Krome and Kronos parameters (also did that for the FX). I converted the spreadsheet to tables in a SQLite DB. I also used a Kronos InitProgram parameters as a starting point for each converted Kronos Program. Then I "injected" the updated Krome parameters into the Kronos programs. Add the PCG headers with with converted Kronos Programs (with a little help from Michel the author of PCGTools. Thanks again!) and voila! Kronos PCG file ready for loading!
Based on the Triton interest, I have contacted Korg to get information on the Triton PCG, KSF, etc. data.
The question still remains: Is the Triton synth engine comparable to the EDS/HD-1 engines of Krome/Kronos? Will the converted parameters "sound" the same between the two workstations? AS Sharp and I both know very well, the M1 did NOT directly convert to the Kronos and it required a LOT of scaling and conversion to get something even close on the Klonos software I created.
I cannot reveal any specifics on the PCG spec. If you contact Dan at Korg, he may be able to help you with that.
To help with future development, please take a few moments to test out my current KROMOS software, since this will be the platform that will include future Korg models. I need feedback!
Thanks |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| tomtomheaven wrote: | I am more and more interested by your software...
Can you explain your method? specs? etc...
I agree Sharp with the fact that triton has much more PCG files to convert than Krome...
So, what about a Triton to Kronos (or Krome ) converter?
In fact, if I had the PCG specifications , I would develop Triton to Krome converter...
Thank you,
Cyph |
I cannot go in details, because I didn't make it. However a Triton to Kronos /Krome converter is much more difficult ... different parameters and more .. thus some cannot be mapped onto others.
You can get (almost) all PCG specifications from the Korg site.
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I don't get it.
The M1 to KRONOS converter is taking AI engine data and remapping it to HD-1 format. So why is there this problem all of a sudden with the Hi-SYS / Triton engine needing to be like EDS?
If anything KROME / EDS is going have even more parameters that will need to be mapped. Just seems to me that if your going to take the time to do this, there's no point in bothering with a KROME converter as there's nothing even worth converting.
Where on the other hand the download section contains tons of Triton data.
Regards
Sharp. |
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sunriser111671
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Michigan USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | I don't get it.
The M1 to KRONOS converter is taking AI engine data and remapping it to HD-1 format. So why is there this problem all of a sudden with the Hi-SYS / Triton engine needing to be like EDS?
If anything KROME / EDS is going have even more parameters that will need to be mapped. Just seems to me that if your going to take the time to do this, there's no point in bothering with a KROME converter as there's nothing even worth converting.
Where on the other hand the download section contains tons of Triton data.
Regards
Sharp. |
I'll give you a few examples:
In the Klonos M1-to-Kronos app:
- VDF EG Release Time was way different from AI to HD-1. It required me to create scaling where Kronos Release Time is almost double the M1 setting
- VDF EG Time KB Track setting in AI is one parameter, but the equivalent in the Kronos is 4 parameters using Ramp settings. And, worse than that, the range on the ramp is way different requiring scaling to be done. And worst than that, the scaling had to be inverted to have negative instead of positive values and vice versa
There were probably 20-25 parameters that required this type of intervention and it drove me nuts and I ALMOST abandoned the project.
Now, in the KROMOS Krome-to-Kronos app:
- all smooth sailings. Parameters directly related to each other. No conversion, no scaling, no inverting values, and no 1-to-4 binding relations needed. So, the VDF EG Release Time setting on Krome "sounds" the same on the Kronos (at least I'm assuming that. I'm still waiting for Krome users to confirm that).
The Klonos AI-to-HD-1 was challenging and I'm glad I completed a working version of it, but I'm not interested in all that custom scaling, binding, etc. for every Korg workstation I want to convert.
So, again my question is: Do the Program Parameters on the Triton with its Hi-SYS sound engine have equivalent Program Parameters in the HD-1 KRONOS THAT "SOUND" the same?
Here's an easy way to test it:
If someone has a Triton and a Kronos, Go to an InitProgram on the Kronos User Bank. Find a Program on the Triton (something generic like a piano sound). Manually set the parameters on the Kronos to match as much as possible the Triton paramters (Pitch,VDF/LFO,VDA EGs should be easy and most others as well). Compare the sound from Triton to Kronos (even if the multisamples are different, you should still be able to hear the EGs, cutoffs frequencies, etc matching with the Kronos). Further, manipulate the EGs on Triton and KRONOS and see if the "sonic character" still matches.
If the Times and Levels appear to match, then I'll be happy to start work on a Triton to Kronos conversion. If they're way off, I may not be interested in spending the amount of time needed to do a PROPER conversion....
Thanks! |
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NuSkoolTone
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Man I'd REALLY LOVE to get in on this with 01/W patches. I have an 01/Wr I keep just because I can't part with the sounds. I'm not sure how free you are with the source, and what programming platform you're using, but may be able to help as programming is also my profession. Just a matter of time management that's the issue!
_________________
Korg: KRONOS 73, M50-61, 01W/r
Yamaha: Motif XS7, FS1R
Kawai K5000S, Roland JD-990 w/Vintage Synth |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi sunriser.
Firstly let me say that I'm very grateful for your efforts and that I would like to thank you for creating the M1 to KRONOS converter.
| Quote: | I'll give you a few examples:
In the Klonos M1-to-Kronos app: |
As to be totally expected. Your taking a sound engine is almost 30 years old and porting it's parameters to the most current sound engine there is.
It was worth the effort too as there's thousands of sounds available for the M1.
| Quote: | Now, in the KROMOS Krome-to-Kronos app:
all smooth sailings. |
Maybe, maybe not but assuming it is for a moment.....
Unlike the M1, there is near next to nothing available for the KROME. So even if you finished this, I honestly can't think of any use I'd have for it, or what others will do with it right now.
There's just nothing much to convert that's even worth the bother.
In short, I see this as a complete waste of your time. I'd rather see you creating something people will use like a Triton to KRONOS convert and sticking a price tag on it for the extra effort it might take.
| Quote: | | So, again my question is: Do the Program Parameters on the Triton with its Hi-SYS sound engine have equivalent Program Parameters in the HD-1 KRONOS THAT "SOUND" the same? |
Nobody knows. Just as nobody knows if the EDS conversion will be as 1:1 as your probably expecting it to be. You may find EDS doesn't port well at all.
The only way anyone will know is if someone sits down and ports a sound manually. I'd do it if I had a Triton but sadly I don't.
Anyway.... bottom line for me on all this is, I'd hate to see you spend time working on something nobody will use. I'd rather see you tackle something that maybe a little or a lot more difficult that everyone will use, and you sticking a price tag on it to justify the efforts it would take.
The 01W, Trinity and Triton series will be the most attractive for KRONOS users in my opinion. Where the KROME will be by far the least interesting for KRONOS users in my opinion.
Regards
Sharp. |
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sunriser111671
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Michigan USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Sharp,
I actually agree with most of what you are saying, but there are a few things I'll point out:
| Quote: | | Just as nobody knows if the EDS conversion will be as 1:1 as your probably expecting it to be. You may find EDS doesn't port well at all. |
Actually using the Best of M1 PCG from Korg as a source file (reason one for justification of creating KROMOS), I converted all 100 programs to Kronos. When I used the M1 samples that are included in the Kronos ROM with my converted PCG from KROMOS, I got results that sounded really REALLY close to the actual M1 I have (by proxy, the Kronos should sound the same as well). A lot of these results were BETTER than using my Klonos converter app!
| Quote: | | I'd hate to see you spend time working on something nobody will use. |
Whether people use it or not is secondary to me. I created this personally to get a good copy of Best of M1 from Krome to Kronos. I also want to use a third party sound set that was created only for the M50/Krome in the Kronos. If others find a use, that's just frosting on the cupcake...
| Quote: | | In short, I see this as a complete waste of your time. |
Now this I have to respectfully disagree with. Even if no one uses KROMOS, what I accomplish with this development is a framework for other Korg workstations to be easily added to my project (from working with Michel and his excellent PCG Tools app, he would probably attest that doing his first synth conversion was not a waste of time but a platform to build his other workstation read/view/writes from). This app was purposefully designed to allow other Korg synths to be plugged in with relative ease (IF there isn't a bunch of conversion, scaling, etc. mumbo jumbo to mess with). That's one reason I chose to use SQLite as my base for the conversion data. I will not have to alter hardly any of my code for new synths, just copy/paste new conversion tables into my DB.
| Quote: | | It was worth the effort too as there's thousands of sounds available for the M1. The 01W, Trinity and Triton series will be the most attractive for KRONOS users in my opinion. |
| Quote: | | Triton to KRONOS convert and sticking a price tag on it |
Hmmm, all it would take is one person with a Triton-to-Kronos converter app to convert all those Triton PCGs in your Download area to Kronos then re-post the Kronos PCGs for the people to download. I can see how it still may be appealing to SOME who may have custom Triton patches with custom samples but I don't think it would sell very well.
I base this on some experience: guess how many people have responded to my Klonos M1-to-Kronos converter app with comments, bugs, accolades? That would be zero. I'm not complaining. I made it to convert my M1 Plus 1 sounds and decided to share without any real expectation.
OK, so who, that owns a Triton and a Kronos, would be interested in working with me to determine the feasibility of a Triton to Kronos converter? I have no interest in purchasing a Triton just for this purpose (my Kronos is just fine and dandy!)
Thank you! |
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Kromeheaven
Approved Merchant
Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 122
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Just one question more :
Are the Kronos PCG files (for EDS synth part) loadable on a Krome?
Thinking of that because if not possible, I can study the Triton-to-Krome converter...
Challenges are my daily
_________________
Korg MicroX / Korg Monotron / Korg Nautilus / Korg X3 / Korg Krome / Alesis QS
http://www.korgnautilus.com
http://www.kromeheaven.com |
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sunriser111671
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Michigan USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| NuSkoolTone wrote: | | Man I'd REALLY LOVE to get in on this with 01/W patches. I have an 01/Wr I keep just because I can't part with the sounds. I'm not sure how free you are with the source, and what programming platform you're using, but may be able to help as programming is also my profession. Just a matter of time management that's the issue! |
The programming platform is .NET 4 C# using WPF. I'm pretty open about the source. Send me a PM with your email address and we'll talk further.
Couple things to note:
- you'll find the same thing in the 01/w I did in the M1. A LOT of parameters that will require scaling, limiting, or just plain custom conversion.
- sampling of the raw multisamples will still need to be done (I think the wave sequences are already in the Kronos correct?) |
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sunriser111671
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Michigan USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Better start studying. Each PCG file is compatible with only one workstation family it was intended for (a few exceptions like ability of Kronos to read Oasys pcg). any more info you'll need to get from Korg.
| tomtomheaven wrote: | Just one question more :
Are the Kronos PCG files (for EDS synth part) loadable on a Krome?
Thinking of that because if not possible, I can study the Triton-to-Krome converter...
Challenges are my daily |
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korglegend
Junior Member
Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| So does anyone converted Krome M1 sounds to Kronos?Thanks |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| korglegend wrote: | | So does anyone converted Krome M1 sounds to Kronos?Thanks |
I don't know for sure, but I got the impression that CTravaglini was working on this and almost finished the job too. I got the feeling he was considering releasing them for a small fee due to the fact that he probably had to spend many days going though each and every program mapping effects and so on.
I can't say for sure though, I'm just reading between the lines here as it was part of another thread on questions about copyright and so on.
Regards
Sharp
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi sunriser.
It's quite interesting to hear that EDS maps so well to HD-1.
I'd love to get my hand on a Triton to compare as I feel the structure of the sound engine very close, but god only knows what way a 1:1 port would turn out. It may involve anything from a little to a massive amounts of scaling. The only way one would ever know is to sit down at a Triton and do a 1:1 port manually.
| Quote: | | Now this I have to respectfully disagree with. |
Well Sir, I tip my hat with respect to you. Your motivations are certainly in the right place and I admire that a lot.
Kind regards
Sharp.
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sunriser111671
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Michigan USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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A new version of KROMOS has been uploaded to my site. Use the same link to download:
http://flexmediasoftware.com/index.php/downloads
Features/Updates:
V0.60 (11/4/2013)
- Added multiple program bank selection from source to target
- Syncronized Source/target bank selection after target conversion. Associated bank on either side will show when radio button changed
- [REMOVED] - Source Raw Data Grid (Caused sluggish response and not really needed)
- [UPDATED] - Target Data Grid now with radio buttons for each Kronos bank to be converted
Image of Multi-selection window:
Still looking for some feedback! |
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ak
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 496
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