Korg Forums

Lazerus · Joined: 13 Feb 2013 Posts: 5 Location: U.K.

Hi all,
My first time up,... in fact my first time on a forum!... so bear with me please.
Background: I have an Extreme(8 Cool

and have just bought a rack.
The idea is to clone the rack with extreme data... given i have the exb-pcm boards installed (still waiting for some to arrive). I understand i can get around 95% compatibility between the two, which should be fine. The multi sample data in the extreme i think resides in different locations than on the rack (except for the identical rom banks that is )
Question; Can anybody suggest a logical and/or quick method of remappig the racks multi samples so they marry up with the extreme. I have the prog,combi, arp, pattern and drum PCG info now in the rack by midi dumps and using Triedpro rack editor.... the multisamples now of course do not sit in thier correct locations......
Just an additional thought, the two rom banks in the extreme( new1 and new 2 ) are i believe not availiabe in expansion form. ...is it possible to sample these in the extreme, then install them each time as ram banks into the rack?....again if this can be done is there a logical/quick method for sampling then remapping into the rack?
Kind regards to all Larry
P.S, The reason for attempting this task is to leave the Extreme flight cased for gigging and use the cloned rack at home perminently hooked up to an old Kawai M8000 controller keyboard i have...... the Extreme is getting heavier or i'm getting older!!

billbaker · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject:

Larry,

The rack has the capacity to do a full load of the Extreme's arps - so that should be a true "clone" item.

As far as I know, all of the voices on the Extreme are lifted from the base-line Triton and directly from the EXB boards, which is to say the only new ground broken on the extreme was getting all those things pre-loaded without needing to lay out cash for the EXB's.

As an owner of both the Classic w/ EXB's and Extreme I can tell you that not all of the EXB voices or multisamples are on the Extreme (lots but not all) so the maxxed-out Rack (or Studio) with most/all the EXB's and their associated "factory" voices should actually be more capable than the Extreme.

The only item missing from the Extreme-to-Rack cloning will be the tube driver parameter, so realistically the better of the two options for Rack+EXB configuration is the original EXB voices written for that specifically (not the Extreme voices moved down).

What I would then do as a "next step" is use your editor as a librarian to put the EXB Combis - which are pretty much identical to their Extreme counterparts - into the same order as is found on the Extreme.

For custom (user) sounds, you'd need to do the old pen and paper routine or perhaps spreadsheet to find the name/bank(EXB)/locations of the programs used within the combi - almost all other parameters from an EXB voice would be the same as that found on the Extreme by the same name.

But if you want an even higher level of compatibility you could move the programs on the Rack to match their Extreme configuration (remember the combis only look for location) and then edit all the EXB combis to look for their correct voices in the Extreme configuration.

You could then move home built (Rack+EXB) combis you come up with up to the road-gig Extreme with minimal editing needed.

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

Lazerus · Joined: 13 Feb 2013 Posts: 5 Location: U.K.

Hi BB,
Thank you for your swift reply, it is very informative. I will mull over your suggestions to fully understand what exactly i have to do?....this is a big learning curve for me as am not up to speed with loading/saving/transfering/ editing techniques. It might a week or so before all my EXB boards arrive, i will try your method then... may i ask you for more advice when the time comes.... i'm sure i'll need it!.... again thanks for your help
Kind regards Larry

billbaker · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject:

Any time. PM or post and I'll probably see it and respond.

Regarding "New" multisample -- I think those are actually the ones found on EXB-08 (Grand Piano) and EXB-01 (Classic Keyboards). The A & B program banks of my extreme were heavily weighted that way with pianos, EPs and organs. The Triton Classic voices were in H-Bank or higher.

So basically, if you add those two EXB's you'll be able to duplicate their Extreme equivalents.

Of the EXB boards, I think EXB-03 is the least represented. The stock Extreme has a lot of the 06/07 Orchestral sounds but if you don't use them much you could skip those -- 07 is the ensemble strings and would be the more useful of the two for me -- the solo instruments are just better versions of the GM sounds.

I used TritonLib for my librarian duties on the Classic, and LeLibby for organizing my Extreme since the TritonLib balked at reading the extra banks. LeLibby or PCGTools would both be good candidates for the re-organization. I'm not familiar with the TriEdPro, but I will take a look.

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

Lazerus · Joined: 13 Feb 2013 Posts: 5 Location: U.K.

Hi BB,
looking at your latest post, and comparing the multisamples from each instrument, i get:
ROMS -identical
Exb 01 and 02 similar/same as Best on Extreme
Exb 03 and 04- little or no similar samples
Exb 05- same or similar to Vintage on Extreme
Exb 06 - same as OrchS on Extreme
Exb 07 - same as OrchB on Extreme
Exb 08 - Same as Piano on Extreme
Exb 09-Same as Synth on Etreme
This leaves the new 1 and 2 banks in the extreme for which i cannot find samples for ?
new 1 contains 8 samples (0 to 7 )
new 2 contains 49 samples (0 to 48 )... this is what i meant to explain properly about 95% compatibility and not, 100% and why i thought of sampling these "new" sounds and use ram loading to the rack each time? Do you have any more thoughts on these samples that i cannot/ dont know how to get into the rack?
Kind regards Larry

billbaker · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject:

There are a few things missing from each EXB as transferred to the Extreme's ROM.

A couple of Kits like the industrial noise kit, which I used a lot on my classic, and the Chinese violin are among the missing samples from the Studio Essentials (02) and Dance (03) EXB's.

I don't know of a way to lift the raw samples, per se, from either machine. You could sample the applied sounds, but that's never quite the same thing.

The "New 1" consists of a Grand Piano sample that to my thinking is like or replaces the one found on the EXB-08, plus some additional phoneme vocal samples that would be similar to those in Roland's "Scat Voices" or the Kurzweil's brilliant "Take 6" samples -- the Kurz's K2000/K2500 samples were in sample format already and those might actually be readable/downloadable as such with no extra work; I've no idea what the general availability of those might be today as they're now close to 20 years old. Could be they're on the net somewhere.

By my count you have something like 4 or 5 piano multi-samples on the EXB boards between the ROM's Acoustic and M-1 pianos, and those found on the Keyboard and Grand Piano EXB's so loading an additional one (New 1) would be overkill.

Of the "New 2" sample there are some that are truly new like the Ulleian Pipes, and the brass "Fall" samples and some that are just better like the guitars and organs. I think that the latter may be intended to work with the Tube drive better.

But those guitars and organs are the meat of the Keyboard (01) and Studio Essentials (02) EXB's, so that may account for their apparent absence from the Extreme's multi-sample list.

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

Vangelismusic · Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:17 pm Post subject:

I wonder if you can load an extreme sample set to a Triton Rack? I guess you need an extrenal SCSI drive to do this?

billbaker · Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:53 pm Post subject:

The issue is in getting raw vs applied samples.

It would be a pretty easy thing to get applied samples - just play a voice or program that uses one.

But the raw samples are one step simpler (and at the same time more complex) than that. You could probably get close to the raw sample as in an INIT voice without any coloration from parameters [and how you'd establish that that was the case is a matter for an oscilloscope and some brain work I'd just as soon not take on]. Additionally, you'd have to find out how multi-samples were compiled for each instrument and where break points and looping behaviors were programmed.
You would, in essence, be recreating an EXB as a series of USER samples.

Too much time and work (IMO) when you could just plop down a hundred bucks or so for an EXB or watch E-bay for a bargain on an Extreme. What's a dedicated month of your spare time worth?

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

Vangelismusic · Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:06 pm Post subject:

What I meant exactly is, can you load a set that was regular pcg and user samples from a Triton Extreme to a Triton rack? that has the SCSI card and an external CD or Hard Drive? I don't care about the expansion cards that the Extreme has just load a set that has user samples is all that matters, and on the Extreme , it's a pretty big file.

billbaker · Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject:

... or ....

Get third party "sounds of the extreme" samples. But those are pretty much guaranteed to be the applied voices -- i.e., not the raw ROM piano waves but the applied waves as used in "Grand Piano 000".

The problem with using the applied samples is that unless they are each sampled at multiple points on the keyboard and looped extremely well or are very long (memory intensive) samples you will not get the same sounds when you play them. Close - almost - nearly like an extreme, but not the same.

- - - - - - -

That's again is the basic question - "Just how close to an Extreme can I get using a Studio or Rack's voices if I fill up the available EXB slots? And the answer, generally, is that you can get so close that there's no appreciable difference (except price). Almost (and there are only a couple of exceptions) any voice/program written for the Extreme can be duplicated exactly by a Max'dRack because (nearly all of) the Extreme's voices are drawn from the original EXB's that you can load in the available slots. The Rack/Studio with EXB's may actually be MORE capable since no compromises in content are made.

As far as Arps are concerned there is no difference as they can be fully loaded from the Extreme -- but there are a dozen or so Arps from the EXB's that you might still want to load in to the USER slots at the tail end of the Extreme's factory Arp load because (again) some compromises in content were made regarding what was compiled and used from the individual EXB's in making up the Extreme's collective ROM.

There's a difference between "the best of the EXB waves" (subjective) and "the EXB waves" (objective).

And a greater difference still between an Extreme and a sample of one or two notes played on it.

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

billbaker · Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:32 pm Post subject:

Sorry - posts are out of order.

You could load the sample set as you've described.

My question is what is the content of the sample?

Raw wave forms exactly as found on the Extreme/EXB's or applied voices - A-000, A-001, A-002, etc.

Raw wave forms, if they were the exact multi samples, would let you load and program the exact voices.

Applied sounds would need to be both long (to avoid loop noise) and sampled across the keyboard (to avoid aliasing and other audible problems) for a very large set of sounds.

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

Vangelismusic · Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject:

Loading a pcg with samples from an Extreme to Rack, no raw samples which would me one by one.

billbaker · Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:33 am Post subject:

PCG files are parameter based, not samples.

You could easily load the extreme's individual programs (pcg) but they'd reference samples you don't have available without installing an EXB board or loading your own samples -- those would be loaded as a .kmp file, not a .pcg file.

Thats why I'm making the point about the samples and the content. Raw samples might allow you to use the .pcg files to duplicate a sound. Applied samples would be, for the most part, a complete one shot sample of a finished sound that would not use most of the parameters found in a .pcg program, in fact one of the reasons that a complete applied sample is less useful is that all of the parameters shift as the sample is re-pitched.

So you might know that raising a sample by playing it twice as fast gets you an octave shift (+). But all the other time-based parameters associated with that sample are doubled as well so a 60 bpm LFO in the original sample will be going at 120 at the octave.

To fix this, multi-samples of the same instrument are used so that less shifting of the sample is needed. They are laid out in a key map similar to how drum samples are assembled into a kit - that is a key map or .kmp file. But this means that a good sample of a fairly complex sound will need LOTS of samples spread out across the keyboard.

So if you are looking to add samples the rule of thumb is add samples that are as simple as you can get them. Raw. No effects. No sweeps or filter changes. Complex sound samples should be as long as possible (i.e., cymbals or piano).

Simple sounds will require fewer multi-samples, so a synth wave form is way simpler to loop, load, and manipulate.

-----------

You can find raw samples available from a lot of 3rd party developers that might give you a more complex sound palate. Future Music magazine from the UK comes with a DVD rom that usually contains a bunch of raw samples. Frequent contributor here, Big Grime, actually posted some self-made waveform samples; you might want to PM him and see if he still has them for distribution.

Lastly, any .pcg program can be edited to use a new/different/user sample. Substituting a new sample or wave form is a great way to easily and quickly make you own sounds.

BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...