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Yoa

This is new to me, and there was no mention of this in the original manual:

When I press or hold a key hard on my DX7, it actually causes a vibrato with varying intensity dependant on how hard you press.

Is this normal? Am I bending something internally that I really shouldn't? All external modulation settings are set to off and/or 0. It may also help to note that I have the Grey Matter E! Card installed, whose manual also states nothing of this.
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Cheers! Yoa

Current electronic equipment: Korg Kaossilator, miniKP, microKORG, nanoKEY, nanoPAD, nanoKONTROL, monotron, Pandora PX5D, AX1000G, M-Audio Keystation 88es, Casio VL Tone, Soundcraft 102 mixer, laptop (which, among other things, has the KORG Legacy Collection and various NI stuffs), Acer Iconia a100 (has many music apps), Stylophone, Yamaha DX7

jimmyss75 · Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Posts: 22 Location: Uppsala, Sweden

Are you sure it isn't just aftertouch? Sounds like aftertouch as it is intensity dependent I'm sure it is.
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Yoa · Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:58 am Post subject:

It's not, unless of course telling it to have aftertouch not affect anything actually means affect everything, which given this thing, is entirely possible.

I know that the aftertouch works when I tell it to, though, and acts like it should; that is, after you release the key, it triggers. Really the only modulator that doesn't work as it should, aside from apparently the keyboard, is the mod wheel, which sends a MIDI signal but has no actual affect on the instrument. Could it be part of the same problem?
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Cheers! Yoa

Current electronic equipment: Korg Kaossilator, miniKP, microKORG, nanoKEY, nanoPAD, nanoKONTROL, monotron, Pandora PX5D, AX1000G, M-Audio Keystation 88es, Casio VL Tone, Soundcraft 102 mixer, laptop (which, among other things, has the KORG Legacy Collection and various NI stuffs), Acer Iconia a100 (has many music apps), Stylophone, Yamaha DX7

jimmyss75 · Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Posts: 22 Location: Uppsala, Sweden

Actually, Maybe It could be just some physical electronical damage that just happens to make that strange behaviour. I just had a similiar problem on a Axiom Pro, after had some (very minor) bump to it it began for each time get more and more peculiar in its controllers.. First up was modwheel died, then pitchbend, then aftertouch became pitchbend, which was very annoying, and now the complete bed all keys don't work as should.
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billbaker · Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject:

Yoa,

Sounds like aftertouch to me - I think that our definitions might be twisted somewhat.

After touch (AFAIK) is a controller that you can add with a key as you hold it after playing, typically with pressure at the bottom of the held key -- if you lean on it then an AT assigned parameter changes. AT would let you "dig" in little to control things like sax growl or violin vibrato using playing gestures similar to what a guitarist might for string bends.

In this case, as you describe it, it sounds like LFO/vibrato might be the thing being triggered as you press in at the bottom of a stroke. This being a DX, what's probably happening is that one of the OPs with an amp function is being varied by AT which would cause that volume wobble. As to which OP that would be... well, I hope you're using an editor that would let you find out the modulation routing at a glance and not paging through parameters for all six operators on the little screen.

Also, I think the DX has channel AT meaning that any key that introduces AT control affects all the held notes, regardless of whether they are leaned on as well. Individual AT (I think some Oberheim and Seqential Circuits keybeds used to feature that) let you add AT control on individual keys regardless of what else was played at the same time.

To me, the other thing you described, which is a volume change when you let go, "after you touch it", is a function of the release portion of the ADSR envelope -- not aftertouch, and depending on the synth (I can't recall particulars for the DX7) that release amount can actually re-trigger a second playing of the note. It's effective for things like emulating the double strike of mandolin tremolo or 12 string guitar.

BB
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jimmyss75 · Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Posts: 22 Location: Uppsala, Sweden

The DX7S model has polyaftertouch the other DX7's doesn't. Also how you described aftertouch sounds more like you described release velocity? The DX7 is a bugger to find parameters in, so it might be some easy miss.

EDIT
Worth a shoot at least; .. Try check controls 15 and 16 in edit mode. Pitch and amplitude sensetive settings, they are global to ALL controllers If I remember correctly, if you set it to highest (7 I think) you get maximum from ALL sources. (mod wheel, aftertouch.. the lot) It's a weird way edit and is easly missed.
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Yoa · Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject:

Jimmy, that's what I thought. I mean, the mod wheel doesn't work right, if the E! card is installed ever so slightly off it totally mangles everything, and now this. I guess this is why not many people use 80's computers anymore!

Bill the ever-knowledgable and helpful (it's true), you've got a point. I'm used to aftertouch being a trigger after release, and either velocity and or pressure sensitivity being something else that can cause this (like on certain Moogs and other analogues). But again, I even set it up with an inititalised patch (no LFO routing or anything) and it did it.

And HA! Who uses editors? No, seriously, my MIDI-USB I/F doesn't support editor communication. Not sure why.

And yes, the DX does have that effect on all notes, hard-pressed or not, as long as one note is. And normally I'd agree with the ADSR thing, except again, it happened with the init patch. Quite strange.

Jimmy (again), I went through all parameters on an init patch and nothing was set to have release velocity or anything. It's literally just a sine wave, no modulations of any sort at all. And btw, with the E! Card, that's a TON of parameters, and I made sure that nothing was awry. I think your idea of physical changes is accurate.

Oh, and note: I'm not saying it's a problem (I'm a soft player), it's just neat and I want to know if it's normal.
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Cheers! Yoa

Current electronic equipment: Korg Kaossilator, miniKP, microKORG, nanoKEY, nanoPAD, nanoKONTROL, monotron, Pandora PX5D, AX1000G, M-Audio Keystation 88es, Casio VL Tone, Soundcraft 102 mixer, laptop (which, among other things, has the KORG Legacy Collection and various NI stuffs), Acer Iconia a100 (has many music apps), Stylophone, Yamaha DX7

X-Trade · Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject:

Aftertouch is a modulation derived from pressure applied to keys as you hold them down.

Velocity refers to how hard (actually, how fast, hence velocity) keys are hit.
Release Velocity refers to how fast the keys are released.

What you describe sounds like some kind of preprogrammed or hard coded aftertouch effect or routing. It may either be 'default' or perhaps there is some obscure parameter somewhere you've overlooked.

Because the DX7 is digital, it is incredibly unlikely for electronic damage to cause weird behaviour in just one aspect. Normally as you say, the whole thing would be screwed. Probably not even work at all. This is because there are no descrete components grouped together that determine indvidual aspects of the sound, it all happens on on the chip, effectively in one place.
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Yoa · Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject:

Quite possibly, and given Yamaha, it probably is something that just comes standard. It is strange that I'm just noticing it now, though, because I have played it hard before. I swear I will never know everything about this instrument. Everytime I play I learn something new.
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Cheers! Yoa

Current electronic equipment: Korg Kaossilator, miniKP, microKORG, nanoKEY, nanoPAD, nanoKONTROL, monotron, Pandora PX5D, AX1000G, M-Audio Keystation 88es, Casio VL Tone, Soundcraft 102 mixer, laptop (which, among other things, has the KORG Legacy Collection and various NI stuffs), Acer Iconia a100 (has many music apps), Stylophone, Yamaha DX7

axxim · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:22 am Post subject:

From the DX7 manual it says in the introduction chapter, that it has Aftertouch which is what X-trade explained (IMHO they should have called it something like Key-Pressure instead). In page 21 of that manual they explain how to set all modulations to "off". After this operation, the Aftertouch shouldn't have any effect.
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Yoa · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject:

Ah, but it does, hence I find it odd.
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Cheers! Yoa

Current electronic equipment: Korg Kaossilator, miniKP, microKORG, nanoKEY, nanoPAD, nanoKONTROL, monotron, Pandora PX5D, AX1000G, M-Audio Keystation 88es, Casio VL Tone, Soundcraft 102 mixer, laptop (which, among other things, has the KORG Legacy Collection and various NI stuffs), Acer Iconia a100 (has many music apps), Stylophone, Yamaha DX7

billbaker · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject:

Yoa,

You never indicated whether this was the "classic" DX7 or a later model. The later models had performance modes and if you're in that then there may be some AT parameters there as well.

You said you also had the E! card installed? That's a whole 'nuther beast - I know I have a Grey Matter manual somewhere (for my DX7ii w/E!), but I'm of little or no help without it.

There are a few GUI based editors for the DX7 (series) that might be helpful in tracking down this curiosity -- most are windows, and many are shareware/freeware so they might be worth a look if this thing doesn't resolve itself soon. Most were written a long time ago for Windows versions that are now dustware, so there's no way of knowing what will or won't work with the current version. There's not much to lose in trying them tho'.

Good luck,

BB
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Yoa · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject:

Yeah, sorry, it's a DX7 mkI -- the original. About the middle of the production series though, judging by the serial.

The E! Card manual says nothing of it either. It's probably an original thing considering it would need pressure sensors, which the E! card (obviously) doesn't install.

Yes, but again I can't use editors and thus my giant library of DX7 sounds because my MIDI I/F doesn't support it, not even with my MicroKORG. It can just handle normal MIDI signals (note, pitch and mod, program change, etc.). I have a couple good editors, but either way none of them have E! supported as far as I know.

And I do apologise, I just looked it up and what I thought was aftertouch was actually release trigger, and aftertouch is when you hold down a note. Suppose I should do my Googling before I determine things like that. Either way, though, my DX still does it whether I want it to or not.
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Cheers! Yoa

Current electronic equipment: Korg Kaossilator, miniKP, microKORG, nanoKEY, nanoPAD, nanoKONTROL, monotron, Pandora PX5D, AX1000G, M-Audio Keystation 88es, Casio VL Tone, Soundcraft 102 mixer, laptop (which, among other things, has the KORG Legacy Collection and various NI stuffs), Acer Iconia a100 (has many music apps), Stylophone, Yamaha DX7

jimmyss75 · Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Posts: 22 Location: Uppsala, Sweden

But the pitch thing is triggered by aftertouch? I looked something up recently, the DX7 have a very tight thing going on with Pitch. PITCH BIAS in manual page 55 says something but that would be true if it is pitch bending effect using aftertouch not an actual vibrato. Looked up what that card thing is, might it be simply some bug on that? it seem to have aftertouch parameters? Many wishes solving this
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billbaker · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject:

One last shot.

There may be an physical element to this problem in that I could see AT getting more pronounced or happening constantly if there were a compression element like a rubber bumper or even felt bushing that was wearing out and allowing travel always to give you a "pressure" of 100+% for large sections of keyboard. Similarly flex in the keybed might be happening and not obvious without moving the keyboard - whenever there is movement of that sort I'd expect weird results; odd pitch bends, AT, velocity, suddenly loud or soft notes, etc.. Could something be pinching a lead from the mod wheel? No loose screws inside? Mysterious rattles?

Have to give a +1 to xtrade's caveat tho', if this was a digital problem I'd expect a complete crash before seeing something like this because like the proverbial "little bit pregnant" there's no "half-broken" in digital equipment.

Still sounds most like a parameter issue to me.

BB
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