Korg Forums

[pressrecord@hotmail.com]

Hi: I have been enjoying using the Kronos with a recording I am working on. I am using an external sequencer (don't want to use the one in the Kronos). I found four different sounds I want to use as lead melodies on four different midi channels. Those sounds are all Combis.

I expected to see something like a Set List arrangement where you have 16 blocks on a page and you simply choose the sound and assign a midi channel 1 thru 16, but apparently there is nothing like that, unless I missed something. All I found is you go into sequence mode. And once there, you cannot access the Combis, but only the Programs. Apparently, then you can try to assemble the Combi you wanted from its basic Program elements.

This makes no sense to me. I must be missing something. Someone, please, guide me on how to set up the Kronos multitimbrally to play Combis from an external sequencer on 16 channels. Thanks!

[Lou]

If I understood you correctly, maybe this will help..

If you are using a Factory Combi or an initialized one with your choice of Programs, while you are in combi mode, Push: Enter/Rec/Write.
On the interface you will be prompt: Setup to Record, Are You Sure? Answer 'Yes"
Your combi will be loaded to the sequencer with all of your selections, FX etc.

The metronome will be ticking, just hit the Start Stop, being you are recording to DAW.

The Wiki at KLF will help to get you going:
http://karma-lab.wikidot.com/search:site/q/recording%20to%20daw
_________________
Lou

[pressrecord@hotmail.com]

Hi Lou: Thanks for the reply. So after I follow that procedure, that Combi will be set to Track One, Midi Channel One? And then after doing that, if I go back to Combi mode and follow the procedure you outlined again, that Combi will be set for Midi Channel 2 / Track 2? Each time, the newly selected sound after following the procedure you mentioned will be assigned to the next open track/midi channel? And all the effects are copied too? Thank you, man!

[Lou]

No, that's not correct.
Read carefully what I said and and follow the link.
You will get nowhere if you think you aren't going to do a little prep work.
It's not hard but there is a path you must follow depending on how and which way you want to record.
_________________
Lou

[pressrecord@hotmail.com]

Ok, Lou... I will read the info in the link... it's on the hard drive and will read it after coffee in the morning. I really, really appreciate your reply!!!

[Lou]

You'll do fine, just take your time. When you understand the options for recording Kronos, then you can apply it to what you're trying to do.
The Wiki is for M3 and Oasys and will the same for K.
_________________
Lou

[ScoobyDoo555]

Just to reiterate Lou's comments:-

You cannot multi-sequence FULL Combis. You have to be VERY selective with the programs being used as you can only use up to 16 programs in a Combi.

So for example, you can rebuild aspects of Combis in a new initialised Combi.
eg 4 "sounds"/programs from one Combi (say on parts 1-4)
another 4 "sounds"/programs from another combi (say on parts 5-
another 4 "sounds"/programs from another combi (say on parts 9-12)

or any combination of sounds up to 16.


if you think about it, if you COULD multi-sequence Combis. Korg would need provide facilities within the keyboard for -

16 Combis (1 per track), with up to a max of 16 programs per Combi....

16 x 16= 256 tracks/channels.......

You'd then need the processing to avoid note-stealing for this amount of sounds....
Then you;d need to consider effects routing for this too.

= OUCH!!

Granted, you would have a MONSTER machine

Hope this helps.

DAn
_________________
Yamaha SY77 & KX88, SSL Nucleus, Korg Kronos 61, Wavestation A/D, Access Virus B, Roland XP30, DeepMind12D, System 1m, V-Synth XT, Focusrite Red16Line, Unitor 8, Akai S3000 XL, Alesis Quadraverb+, Focal Shape Twins, Full fat iMac, Logic Pro X, ProTools 2021, loadsa plugins.

[SanderXpander]

But, since you say the combis you need all contain lead sounds, it could be that you're really only using one program within the combi (the rest could be karmafied drums or accompaniment).

[ScoobyDoo555]

This is true too
_________________
Yamaha SY77 & KX88, SSL Nucleus, Korg Kronos 61, Wavestation A/D, Access Virus B, Roland XP30, DeepMind12D, System 1m, V-Synth XT, Focusrite Red16Line, Unitor 8, Akai S3000 XL, Alesis Quadraverb+, Focal Shape Twins, Full fat iMac, Logic Pro X, ProTools 2021, loadsa plugins.

[pressrecord@hotmail.com]

Thanks for the replies! Ok-- having "only" (my word!) 16 programs available multitimbrally was not at all what I was expecting... Okay, I love the sounds in this keyboard, so I will try not to freak out...

Yes, right now I want to use 4 different lead sounds. Just for that, I think I should be able to just do program changes (for these Combis) to switch back and forth among the four of them. But I expected after doing that I would probably find other parts I want to layer (like string backings), so I need to deal with the Kronos' limitations (as every machine has) regarding multitimbrality.

Ok: We are all in this same boat together. So, I guess it would behoove me, since we can only have 16 programs at a time, to look at the construction of the Combi I want to assign to Midi Channel one and dissect it-- remove the elements of it that I don't need.

I want to use INT B:029 (for example) and don't need all the timbres assigned to it. I don't need the Karma stuff. I just need 2 of the timbres-- there is a sound something like a square wave synth and also a sax sound, the amplitude of which rises as a layer in the background-- very cool programming! (There is another sound in the lower register-- an airy sound, I won't be needing, too.) So I just need those two parts: square wave and sax.

My question is I guess I could copy that Combi to a user slot, then strip away the parts I don't need. But it looks like those 2 sounds I mentioned (square wave and sax) are repeated like twice or thrice each and panned the same way... I don't get it... the volume slider is up for the multiple instances of the square wave and the sax... Why? It doesn't make sense to me. If you have a square wave as part of a Combi three times, shouldn't it be panned differently or effected differently so there is no phase cancellation? Maybe they are effected differently, but I can't see that (I don't know where to look).

So.... why is the square wave there like 3 times and the same sax program like 3 times in the same Combi???

If I could copy that Combi to a user area, strip it down to just one instance of the square wave and the sax, that would be just 2 programs-- I'd have 14 left-- wow... I guess I could live with that! (What choice would I have! )

But I wonder if the repeated appearances of that square wave and the sax are there for a reason that I do not yet understand and I might need them to port the full nuances of the part of the Combi that I want to a User slot then to the sequencer for external triggering (via an Akai MPC).

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Yes, if I can be walked through this process once, I think I should be able to "get" it and take the training wheels off...

Step One: Analyze the first Combi you want to assign to Midi Channel One. Copy the Combi to a User Combi slot. Identify the programs within the Combi you don't need. Send renamed, stripped down Combi to Sequencer and assign to Midi Channel One.

Tell me if I am wrong, but is the above the process?

If so, I might understand what I need to do, I just would like to know HOW to do the steps.

Then when you repeat the process for your second sound, how do you assign the second stripped down Combi to Midi Channel Two?

I did read that info about the M3, Lou, that you kindly referred me to. I got some insight from it, but for me the writing style is hard to follow. I just need directions like: If you want to do this, Step One-- Push this... Step Two do this, Step three, do that. Sorry, that's how I am, but I will try to extract more from reading the material again. And you did give me a button press sequence to use.

[BTW: I wonder if other users might find another mode of working with the Kronos to be useful-- an alternative way for the Kronos to offer multitimbrality-- We could have Combi Lite Mode (CLM)-- The Karma stuff is not there. No keyboard splits. Maybe just two or three programs (layered) at the most per CLM Combi. Then in Combi Lite Mode you see on the screen say 8 blocks. You can assign any CLM Combi to those blocks just by selecting them via menu button on each block-- no stripping or analyzing required! In a simple way, you can set the MIDI channel--touch button menu. And you don't go into Sequencer Mode to set up the Multi. And if you select too many Lite Combis so that you go beyond the effects capabilities of the machine, a message tells you so on the screen and instead of eight slots, you might only get 4, 5 or whatever. This would be a godsend for me!!! I would find this extremely useful! The Combis I have looked at are way, way overkill in complexity. For me, a mode where the Combis are scaled back in complexity could make the Kronos easier to use and more practical. It could all be done in software. What do you say Dan, Lou-- and others??? Would anyone else find another operational mode like that useful?]

Thank you to all who have responded so far

[ScoobyDoo555]

Your stripped down combis will STILL take up Midi channels (up to 16 of them), or tracks.

That's the drawback with 99.9% of ALL hardware.

"They all do that, Sir"




but your theory is sound - investigate the Combi, copy to a new location, strip it back, and then repeat process whilst adding into the "new" combi......

You'll still end up with ONE combi that ahs up to 16 sounds/programs.

In Sequencer mode, you'll STILL only have access to one combi, or 16 programs.

HOpe this helps a bit

Dan
_________________
Yamaha SY77 & KX88, SSL Nucleus, Korg Kronos 61, Wavestation A/D, Access Virus B, Roland XP30, DeepMind12D, System 1m, V-Synth XT, Focusrite Red16Line, Unitor 8, Akai S3000 XL, Alesis Quadraverb+, Focal Shape Twins, Full fat iMac, Logic Pro X, ProTools 2021, loadsa plugins.

[Lou]

You may be looking at this all wrong. I've been trying to understand just what it is that you are trying to do? First off you don't have to be in Sequence mode to record externally.

For instance, say you are in an initialized combi. You select a sound on channel 1. In you daw set up a track for channel 1, now you can hear and play/record.
On Kronos you select another sound on channel 2, in daw, track 2 channel 2, you hear/play/record, etc..
(Local Control Off) so that you can monitor individual sounds as you work/play.

When you find a patch that you want to use, and learn how to copy it from the drop down, you can duplicate it in your combi with FX and all.
Of course there is a limit on FX slots, but you then share them from other in your setup, and so on..
If you are new to all of this, it can be quite daunting and take some time to wrap your head around.

Don't misunderstand me, but I think your problem is not understanding the path for all of this to work.
Either you are coming from another keyboard provider or are new to the process of recording multi-timbrel.
The way things function may not be as you would like, but this is the way Korg has set there preferences.

It took me, (As well as it did others) some time to understand the process. Even now and then I run into a bump..
You have to do the work.. JMO
_________________
Lou

[pressrecord@hotmail.com]

Let me give a little background about my setup. I have a hardware sequencer (MPC 4000) connected to about 20 midi modules (including some Korgies). When I sequence, I use all 4 MIDI outs of the MPC to trigger the modules on different channels.

I would like to trigger more than one Kronos Combi in this manner. For example, have Combi INT B:029 play at the same time as Combi INT A: 055 and Combi D: 089--- all on different MIDI channels.

When I bought the Kronos, I saw those Set Lists and thought (obviously erroneously): "That would be a cool way to have a multitimbral set up for MIDI! You just choose the sound you want, assign it to a square and set the MIDI channel! How simple!" Yes, I probably thought this because I have some other synthesizers that do this very simply.

Ok-- I see-- the Combis in the Kronos are so complex (actually what I would call Performances) that you can't work like that-- you'd overwhelm the system's sound producing capabilities.

So if you want to have a few or several sounds at once, you either use the simple Programs or find a Combi you like, analyze the structure, and strip it down.

I wish there were another mode between the simple Program sounds and the extremely complex Combis, without the splits and Karma parts. As Is: We have a choice of simple OR extremely complex, with nothing in between.

So for multitimbral use, the user has to construct this In Between Mode himself, stripping Combis. It would be useful, I think, if there were another part of patch memory assigned to such sounds out of the box and an easy way to set them up on the screen in boxes--- and easily assign different MIDI channels to them. For me, this would be an amazing time saver.

I don't know how I might have given the impression that I wanted to use one MIDI channel. I just want to use the Kronos like all the other synths I have-- choose a sound, set the MIDI channel, and go. Unfortunately, it looks like the Kronos was NOT created to do this with the nice Combi sounds in mind.

Am I right with what I wrote about in this post, or do I misunderstand how the Kronos works? Maybe I am still missing something. What I want to do i think is very elementary: Choose a few sounds and play them on different channels via MIDI.

If I understand what people are telling me, and the above is correct, if I want to start by choosing a Combi, the first step it seems is to strip the sound down.

How do you do it? What do you push/do?

Also, when you have a Combi with what for me are mysterious repetitions of the same program within the Combi, how can you know why the same sax sound is there 3 times in the Combi? And the square wave sound is there 3 times?

The next step is to assign to a MIDI channel. How do you do it? I would prefer not to enter Sequence mode since I am using an external sequencer. I was under the impression that I had to go into sequencer mode to set up a multi. I don't have to do that? If i want Combi XYZ on MIDI channel one (after I stripped down the Combi), how do I do it so it is ready for the MPC top trigger it? If i want Combi ZZZ on MIDI channel two (after I stripped down that Combi), how do I do it so it is ready for the MPC top trigger that one?

I expected a section in the manual on this, but all I see what are for me mysterious hints.

I like the performance aspects of the Kronos with the Karma parts. It is amazing what you can do just sitting down and playing with that one. Many of the simple Programs are very, very cool and inspiring and I will no doubt use multitimbrally in my MIDI set up.

I just am surprised that apparently there is no easy way to work in the middle ground. When I hear those Combis, I want to use them in my MIDI set up. I guess I can, but it's going to take a lot (I guess) of surgery-- I need to deconstruct those Combis (which I would call Performances or Ultra Combis) and then somehow assign them to MIDI channels.

I hope I was clear as to what I am trying top accomplish.

Does anyone know how to:

1) Know why a Combi has multiples of the same Program sound in it?
2) How to disable the unwanted Programs in a Combi?
3) How to take those stripped down Combis and assign them to MIDI channels 1 through 16?

I would be a happy camper if this esoteric knowledge could be imparted to me

Thank you all

[pressrecord@hotmail.com]

So to use the correct Kronos terminology, I guess I am trying to figure out:

1) How to identify why there are repeated Programs within a Combi (like, why is the square wave sound there 3 times in the same Combi).

2) How to deassign various sounds from a Combi.

3) How to assemble the stripped down Combis into a new Combi.

4) How to assign the various parts of the Combi to MIDI channels 1 through 16.

(The above is taking into account what people said about only one Combi being available being available via MIDI. I can't trigger various stripped down Combis at the same time as Combis. I need to assemble the stripped down Combis into a single Combi, apparently. So the Combi IS a multitimbral set up in the Kronos... I think )

[ScoobyDoo555]

OK, easy questions to answer that are (a) in the manual & (b) obvious when you look at the Combi page

1. Look for same sounds set to same MIDI channels, or keyspans * (explained in point #4)
2. Easiest thing to do is just mute the parts you don't want to hear.
3. Save first Combi into a new slot and edit accordingly. SAVE/WRITE. Then find your next combi and it's Pen & Paper time! Write down the sounds/fx you need. Go back to the written combi, and add to the next available slots/channels.
4. Press "Timbre Parameter" tab at the bottom. press midi tab. plain sailing from there.


Hope this helps.

Dan
_________________
Yamaha SY77 & KX88, SSL Nucleus, Korg Kronos 61, Wavestation A/D, Access Virus B, Roland XP30, DeepMind12D, System 1m, V-Synth XT, Focusrite Red16Line, Unitor 8, Akai S3000 XL, Alesis Quadraverb+, Focal Shape Twins, Full fat iMac, Logic Pro X, ProTools 2021, loadsa plugins.