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Amos922
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 88
Location: Ohio
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 Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: | | Amos922 wrote: |
I have had trouble understanding the concept of the vector envelope to the point of doing something functional and creative with it. /could you elaborate and maybe give an example of some cool parameters to get an idea of what it can do? |
Vector Envelopes are just wonderful, and are really powerful in Kronos. They represent a complex modulation "source", freely assignable....but you can fully automate them, sync them to system clock or free time, and loop them!
Under Korg, Vector modulation was perhaps best implemented on the Korg Z1. Using its X/Y pad, the real time modulation control was both inspiring and deep (hundreds of possible destination assignments). Of course Wavestation first implemented vectoring in a Korg synth. What Kronos brings to the table is such a powerful U.I. for setting up these Vector envelopes. The "power" is eye opening once you realize it!
Considering that the 4 poles on a virtual X/Y plane (+X, -X, +Y, -Y) can each be assigned to separate and multiple modulation destinations....each with varying intensity amounts, so moving the physical vector joystick can execute complex modulations. A Vector "envelope" merely automates the movement of the (virtual) joystick.
Kronos has DEEP modulation matrixing (though I personally wish it was all on one page of the U.I. for easy reference...because sometimes hunting down a modulation assignment can be a chore), so the possibilities for complex and interesting modulation using the vector envelope is vast.
Perhaps the best way to experience how easy it can be to use this to customize and add remarkable interest and creativity and motion to a patch is to take an existing preset which has clearly audible vector mod assignments. In other words, find a patch which makes some nice sonic changes when you move the physical vector joystick around. A good example might be UD074 The Final Frontier (STR1). The Joystick causes quite interesting modulation. Another example is its immediate neighbor UD075 Death Angels (STR1). Now you have to look at the Vector Envelope page (Common).
First....in most programs, the Vector envelope is turned off by default. Turn it on (top left)~! Now make sure that the envelope is set to Loop, infinitely. It should default to a 4 point loop (meaning it will travel between 4 points in the X/Y space, and return to point 1 and repeat). Now comes the fun part. You can manually set each individual point of the envelope to establish how it will travel in the X/Y space. The Interface for this is excellent on Kronos which adds to the fun and power.
Start with point 1 by selecting the radio button for it in the Point Selection "area" (bottom of Vector Envelope page). Now simply move the physical joystick while holding a key or chord (I like to set the Kronos droning using a sustain pedal or CC66 so its easy to edit and hear the changes). While moving the joystick, when you find an interesting alternative timbre in the X/Y space, stop and select the next point (press the next radio button for the next "point"). Move the joystick around again to find another sonically interesting and different timbre, stop and select the next point....and so on. When you have assigned all these "points", be sure to select the Radio Button "off" (top left of the point assignment area) to prevent any accidental changes to your selections!
Now its time adjust the travel speed of the sound through time. You can sync to midi clock, and that's easy enough. But using real "time" (milliseconds) and setting separate hold times at each point, and travel times between each point, is more creative for evolving pads and effects, IMO. Using slow travel times, and longer hold times, you can turn just about any patch into a "soundscape".
As far as finding "interesting" mod destinations for the 4 poles on the X/Y plane.....just take a look at some existing programs which have interesting and clearly audible modulations by moving the physical joystick. Hunt down the various AMS assignments for +X, -X, +Y, and -Y (thus why I would prefer a mod matrix on one unified page!!!) to see how these have been assigned, and what intensity levels yield the sonic results. Sometimes just changing the intensity level of an particular assignment can make dramatic sonic changes.
I have only scratched the surface with using Vector Envelopes in this post. There are many other parameters in the V.E. pages to explore and play with. Having an X/Y space to modulate multiple parameters with Kronos deep and diverse mod (AMS) assignments is truly a synthesists and sound designers dream. Just this one feature-set alone make Kronos (Oasys) a more powerful synthesizer than most. And its a sure fire way to pretty easily program your own custom complexity, motion, and creativity into various presets. Consider high speeds of the Vector loop...creating rhythmic passages or synth effects. Consider low speeds of travel on the Vector loop for pads and soundscapes. Consider BPM synced modulations of pitch or filter cutoff/intensity for polyrhythmic loops. The possibilities are endless. |
This is one of the best responses I have seen on a forum. Exactly what I was looking for. Im in front of my Kronos now doing this step by step and already am getting a clearer understanding of the possibilities of what vector envelopes can do! I appreciate the help sir..WOW!!! |
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PinkFloydDudi
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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The Kronos has definitely taught me I have tons to learn in terms of understanding the basics of sound creation. Not having grown up in the analog days, I definitely see how understanding the workings of old analog synths gives people a huge advantage in terms of knowing what to do.
I'm loving taking things chunk by chunk and figuring out different parameters and such.
I like that the Kronos offers you some spectacular preset sounds...but as you dig deeper, you realize that those presets only scratch the surface of what you can accomplish with the sounds.
The CX3 engine is a perfect example IMO. Decent preset patches, but oh the greatness you can get with some tweaks. |
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QuiRobinez
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2539
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Great post RonF !!! |
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PinkFloydDudi
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| qrobinez wrote: | | Great post RonF !!! |
+1 to that!
That page on the kronos has intimidated me more than others since I get lost in the terminology on the page very quickly...
Can't wait to walk through the example you just mentioned RonF.
I created a "Mr.Crowley" combi just to play around with different sounds and such...and I got stuck on the very last part of the intro - the one sound that drops in pitch and then goes way up (again, the last part of the key intro).
I could do it manually by using the joystick to modulate the pitch, but I was looking for it to be much more automated...I have a great feeling the stuff you described is what I was looking for.
Definitely a good writeup and response!! Ty! |
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shawnhar
Full Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| PinkFloydDudi wrote: | I created a "Mr.Crowley" combi just to play around with different sounds and such...and I got stuck on the very last part of the intro - the one sound that drops in pitch and then goes way up (again, the last part of the key intro).
I could do it manually by using the joystick to modulate the pitch, but I was looking for it to be much more automated...I have a great feeling the stuff you described is what I was looking for. |
That sounds like a perfect use for the vector envelope.
If you only sometimes want this effect, you can also hook that up to one of the switch buttons eg.
For me the awesome thing about the vector envelope isn't so much what it can do (which is really nothing more than you could alternatively program using a couple of envelopes or LFOs as modulation sources) but how immediate and hands-on it is. Programming a complex evolving sound via envelope or LFO requires me to understand up front exactly what I want and how I intend to achieve it, which is sometimes fine but doesn't exactly lend its self to interactive experiementation or the serendipitous discovery of new sounds!
Wheras with the vector envelope, because the same settings are controlled by the stick, I can take a wild guess at what parameters might be interesting to modulate, move the stick to instantly see if I was right, repeat until I have it making some interesting changes to the sound, then experiment playing with one hand and moving the vector stick with the other until I find what sweet spots or movements produce the most interesting noises. Then I can decide whether I want to automate these movements via the vector envelope, or continue to control them in realtime with the stick. Or I can do both, as the two inputs combine in such a way that I can realtime adjust over the top of a programmed vector envelope!
The cool thing about this is how interactive and realtime the whole process is: feels much more like playing as opposed to programming the sound design process... |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| shawnhar wrote: |
For me the awesome thing about the vector envelope isn't so much what it can do (which is really nothing more than you could alternatively program using a couple of envelopes or LFOs as modulation sources) |
Excellent post and excellent point! But I have to disagree to your comment above. There are some important differences between vector envelopes and standard envelopes or LFOs.
First you have the X/Y space.....so a point on the plane dictates not only a single modulation setting, but respective modulation settings of 4 separate discrete poles. Setting this up with standard Envs would quickly eat up your arsenal of Envelopes, and would require very unintuitive adjustments not optimal in real time (changing one envelope would not automatically alter the other envelope(s) as in vectoring). Then you have the "Hold time" parameter at the various points in the plane, which is a very creative and unique tool. While the message your post delivers is important and spot on, which I fully agree with, I just wanted to clarify these differences.
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shawnhar
Full Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: | There are some important differences between vector envelopes and standard envelopes or LFOs.
[snip] |
True that. I was actually thinking not so much of the Kronos envelopes (which are somewhat underspecified compared to competing instruments, I suspect exactly because the vector envelope can better meet this need) as on other synths such as NI FM7, which provides a large number of multistage envelopes, sublooping, adjustable gradients per segment, etc.
Something like FM7 really can do everything the Kronos vector can (and more beside), except it is a massive and non-intuitive pain to set up, so in practice I found myself making little use of this capability.
Wheras with Kronos, it is the work of a moment to grab the stick, move it, think "hmm, that was cool, I want to do that movement every time!", open up the envelope editor and automate whatever motion caught your ear... |
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NuSkoolTone
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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I like to start with a preset too and go from there. I wish there was more variety in the stock presets (They all sound very "Korg", it'd be nice if there were some (more?) roland, oberheim, and moog stuff) though. There are some flavors I'm sure the Kronos can do, but if you want it you're starting from scratch.
Now forgive me if I just need to RTFM (Well, PDF file) more but it would be nice if there were some more programming utilities to help speed the process since the Kronos IS so deep and a "Programmer's dream". One simple example: With so many programs available to assign to a combi and so many IFXs, why can't I assign the IFX's as I bring in EACH program to the unused IFX? The copy program function just keeps overwriting the IFX instead of intelligently using what's still available and re-routing accordingly. Something like this would be a HUGE time saver for those of us that make combis.
Because especially for us new to Oasys/Kronos (Or just didn't dive deep into the M50/M3 which has many similarities) time is a required investment that will reap huge rewards. However for many our time to program is limited and anything to help speed the process would be immensely helpful and I for one would be GRATEFUL!
Also I know no one wants to pigeon hole any part of the Kronos, but perhaps a guide including the accepted strengths and weaknesses to the engines would be helpful too. Example, I found that the MS-20 was far better suited for the type of patch I was trying to create over the polysix and AL-1. Maybe deeper documentation on the CHARACTER of the engines and not just parameters? Just IMHO. YMMV!
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Korg: KRONOS 73, M50-61, 01W/r
Yamaha: Motif XS7, FS1R
Kawai K5000S, Roland JD-990 w/Vintage Synth |
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apex
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 2340
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| NuSkoolTone wrote: | I like to start with a preset too and go from there. I wish there was more variety in the stock presets (They all sound very "Korg", it'd be nice if there were some (more?) roland, oberheim, and moog stuff) though. There are some flavors I'm sure the Kronos can do, but if you want it you're starting from scratch.
Now forgive me if I just need to RTFM (Well, PDF file) more but it would be nice if there were some more programming utilities to help speed the process since the Kronos IS so deep and a "Programmer's dream". One simple example: With so many programs available to assign to a combi and so many IFXs, why can't I assign the IFX's as I bring in EACH program to the unused IFX? The copy program function just keeps overwriting the IFX instead of intelligently using what's still available and re-routing accordingly. Something like this would be a HUGE time saver for those of us that make combis.
Because especially for us new to Oasys/Kronos (Or just didn't dive deep into the M50/M3 which has many similarities) time is a required investment that will reap huge rewards. However for many our time to program is limited and anything to help speed the process would be immensely helpful and I for one would be GRATEFUL!
Also I know no one wants to pigeon hole any part of the Kronos, but perhaps a guide including the accepted strengths and weaknesses to the engines would be helpful too. Example, I found that the MS-20 was far better suited for the type of patch I was trying to create over the polysix and AL-1. Maybe deeper documentation on the CHARACTER of the engines and not just parameters? Just IMHO. YMMV! |
there is a way to make the IFX not overwrite what you've already inserted. I just turned on my Kronos so I can check and tell you. Be back soon.
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Amos922
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 88
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| apex wrote: | | NuSkoolTone wrote: | I like to start with a preset too and go from there. I wish there was more variety in the stock presets (They all sound very "Korg", it'd be nice if there were some (more?) roland, oberheim, and moog stuff) though. There are some flavors I'm sure the Kronos can do, but if you want it you're starting from scratch.
Now forgive me if I just need to RTFM (Well, PDF file) more but it would be nice if there were some more programming utilities to help speed the process since the Kronos IS so deep and a "Programmer's dream". One simple example: With so many programs available to assign to a combi and so many IFXs, why can't I assign the IFX's as I bring in EACH program to the unused IFX? The copy program function just keeps overwriting the IFX instead of intelligently using what's still available and re-routing accordingly. Something like this would be a HUGE time saver for those of us that make combis.
Because especially for us new to Oasys/Kronos (Or just didn't dive deep into the M50/M3 which has many similarities) time is a required investment that will reap huge rewards. However for many our time to program is limited and anything to help speed the process would be immensely helpful and I for one would be GRATEFUL!
Also I know no one wants to pigeon hole any part of the Kronos, but perhaps a guide including the accepted strengths and weaknesses to the engines would be helpful too. Example, I found that the MS-20 was far better suited for the type of patch I was trying to create over the polysix and AL-1. Maybe deeper documentation on the CHARACTER of the engines and not just parameters? Just IMHO. YMMV! |
there is a way to make the IFX not overwrite what you've already inserted. I just turned on my Kronos so I can check and tell you. Be back soon. |
Im interested in hearing this response, I haven't figured out how to do this as well... |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: |
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When copying a program (via the menu) you can select whether to use all effects or only the used ones.
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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Amos922
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 88
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: | | When copying a program (via the menu) you can select whether to use all effects or only the used ones. |
It worked. Thank you |
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Hooch
Junior Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 99
Location: Northern California USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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We still need more room to create our own programs without ripping existing combi's unknowingly.
The PCG tool goes a long way to avoiding this.
There's banks upon banks of empty combi's.
But one empty program bank latched to one universe of program architecture.
Tomorrow will tell another story?
Hooch |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Hooch wrote: | We still need more room to create our own programs without ripping existing combi's unknowingly.
The PCG tool goes a long way to avoiding this.
There's banks upon banks of empty combi's.
But one empty program bank latched to one universe of program architecture.
Tomorrow will tell another story?
Hooch |
With PCG Tools you also can make quite easily a PCG file that only consists of programs really used by other banks. How?
- Save a full PCG (or copy the default one) to X.pcg
- Load X.pcg
- Clean all programs and combi.
- Load preload.pcg (don't close x.pcg)
- Select all combi banks
- Press Copy
- Copy all Combis in the clipboard to X.pcg (per bank), until all combis are copied, do this bank by bank.
- Copy all programs in the clipboard to the program banks (PCG Tools detects which programs can be copied), do this bank by bank.
- Save X.pcg
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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