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Kronos fx limitations....
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dtray187
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Joined: 09 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Kronos fx limitations.... Reply with quote

Well mine will be here tomorrow, alto music has them in stock, as of yesterday.

But I just wonder why korg is still the lowest in availible fx? I know 12 inserts is a step up from 5( was way too low)
But for korg sounds that are made great by fx more so than fantom and motif sounds, they still are low in insert numbers.
In this day and age , why not 26 inserts? Im sure chips can handle that. I can run 400 or more on my 8 core mac.

I do like the freedom of the fx chain, 12 is only enough for about 4 instruments in seq mode to sound the same as in program mode.

it would be ideal for the machine to have 30 inserts and each sound automatically kept its inserts in seq mode like motif......
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panrixx
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the feeling that if Korg incorporated the wishes of everyone, as discussed across many of the threads here, the resultant machine would be one hell of a tool. Only problem is it would probably be priced above the original Oasys RRP.
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CfNorENa
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos fx limitations.... Reply with quote

dtray187 wrote:
I do like the freedom of the fx chain, 12 is only enough for about 4 instruments in seq mode to sound the same as in program mode.


Agreed -- but at least with the Kronos you can dump those 4 tracks to audio, and start again with a fresh 12 fx (and renewed polyphony). I.e., when you use the sequencer and the hard disk recorder in tandem, you should be able to work around that limitation.

Long-time Korg workstation user here. I still remember discovering this limitation on my M1. I wonder how many threads will be started here with new users complaining that their programs don't sound the same in SEQ mode as they do in PROG mode. 1000? 10,000?

Laughing
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that most Yamaha/Roland workstations can only use 1 effect for a single voice, whereas Korg workstations can use all insert effects for each program in a combi. This results in 16 * 12 = 192 effect processors (only inserts counted). However this is not really flexible tough.

Numbers cannot always be compared this easily.

But yes it would be nice to design your own specs without any limitations. Please korg, give me a synth with 1000 inserts, 100 global and 100 total effects. Make the polyphony 1000 tones per EXi and make not 9 of them but 900. I would like to have the following instruments as virtual synths:
- All Korg synths (including analogs of course)
- All Emu, Roland, Yamaha, Casio, Nord, Kurzweil, Kawai synthesizers ... and pianos
- 16PB SSD, 75% filled with any instrument existing etc....

But to be serious, it would not be nice to buy such an instrument, because then there would not be any wishes after it. And Korg wouldn't sell a newer version after it ...
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BillW
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michelkeijzers wrote:
It seems that most Yamaha/Roland workstations can only use 1 effect for a single voice, whereas Korg workstations can use all insert effects for each program in a combi. This results in 16 * 12 = 192 effect processors (only inserts counted). However this is not really flexible tough.


No, those 12 inserts are all you get. If you have 16 voices in a combi, you still only have 12 inserts total.
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chilly7
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurzweil can use all it's effects power on singel voice or combi too...
p.s. The real problem with Motif xs was with me that while it had 8 insrerts i could use only 2 insers per program which extremly limited creationg of synth sounds

p.s. the nice thing is that Korg give flixibility to use all effects on a singel program, so in some situataions ,particular when i am creating synth sounds can be quit nice
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are kidding, right?

KRONOS effects systems is the most flexible and powerful among the workstations.... up to par with OASYS.

Don't forget 3 part EQ on each part as well.

If you want the most powerful effects system on a workstation, this is it.

When you use sounds in a Combi and Song, you really don't want them to sound the same as in Program mode. If you layer all 16 programs like that, it will sound too muddy, and you will have to tweak the effects for that specific mix any way.

See my post in this thread: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=58603&highlight=
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Last edited by Shakil on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BillW wrote:
michelkeijzers wrote:
It seems that most Yamaha/Roland workstations can only use 1 effect for a single voice, whereas Korg workstations can use all insert effects for each program in a combi. This results in 16 * 12 = 192 effect processors (only inserts counted). However this is not really flexible tough.


No, those 12 inserts are all you get. If you have 16 voices in a combi, you still only have 12 inserts total.


What michel means is that on Roland and Motif, you can't route different parts to same EFX, so if you have to layer some programs through same EFX, you can't.. and end up losing effects processing units.
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chilly7 wrote:
Kurzweil can use all it's effects power on singel voice or combi too...
p.s. The real problem with Motif xs was with me that while it had 8 insrerts i could use only 2 insers per program which extremly limited creationg of synth sounds

p.s. the nice thing is that Korg give flixibility to use all effects on a singel program, so in some situataions ,particular when i am creating synth sounds can be quit nice


chilly 7.. you can use all 16 effects on a single voice or combi on KRONOS as well..... Chain IFX1-12, then route IFX12 to MFX1, chain MFX1 to MFX2, and then use 2 TFX.... All effects units can load Any effect processor... And if you keep mixing down to audio track...... there is no limit really..
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JimH
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not as familiar with the Korg way of things, coming from Yamaha-world. But I don't think it's as easy as comparing numbers. Yamaha can give you 16 insert effects vs. 12 in the Korg. But Korg's routing is more flexible which I think makes it better overall.

But looking in the Kronos manual it seems like you cannot run insert effects in parallel, true? They must all be in series. On a Yamaha I can only run two insert effects for a part but I can run them in series or in parallel. I'm not sure what I would ever need parallel for, so I'm not complaining about it. It's something I noticed.

Jim
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JPWC
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What ever happen to the day when 24 tracks with 3 or 4 FX's was considered a full production.

I would like to suggest that if you require more FX's than available, maybe you should consider editing the sound it's self.
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EXer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michelkeijzers wrote:
It seems that most Yamaha/Roland workstations can only use 1 effect for a single voice[...]

That was true 20 years ago (OK, 10 years ago for Roland Wink ). Maybe you should update your knowledge...

Motif XS/XF : 8 parts in a performance have their own insertion fx blocks (insert A + insert B for each of these 8 parts)

Fantom G : each part has dedicated fx, so a patch sounds exactly the same in a live set or in a studio set as in single mode (the Fantom X war more limited, nevertheless it had 3 MFX in performance mode)

michelkeijzers wrote:
[...]whereas Korg workstations can use all insert effects for each program in a combi.


That's not true.

M3 : only 5 insert effects available in a combi.

OASYS : 16 pgms in a combi, 12 insert effects.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I come from the Fantom G, which I regard as an effect routing disaster:
- 16 hardwired PFX which are completely useless for anything else
- no part EQ: you seriously have to sacrifice your single PFX whenever EQ is needed
So certainly no flexible effect routing there. It is impossible to get everday basic, trivial sound jobs done, like using a Leslie plus overdrive within this PFX concept in a Live Set.

The Korg concept looks ten times better to me than the Roland Fantom G concept, and I agree completely with Shakil.

The only problem seems to be that you can't just copy some programs with several effects to sequencer (or combi) mode and hope that they sound the same: you will have to manage your effect resources. I regard this system as superior anyway, because you as user can make flexible use of resources instead of being stuck in a too narrow company effect design. So effect resources are limited (not: small!), yes, but extremely well useable, and you are done once you have organized your stuff properly.

By the way, I do NOT believe the widespread commonplace fairy tale, that Korg sounds need more effects than other synths. After having tested the Kronos, I regard that as pure nonsense. What may be true is that many programs seem to use more effects than needed, just for the fun of it, and that causes problems whenever trying to get several of them 1:1 to other modes.
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EXer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
I come from the Fantom G, which I regard as an effect routing disaster:
- 16 hardwired PFX which are completely useless for anything else
- no part EQ: you seriously have to sacrifice your single PFX whenever EQ is needed
- no flexible effect routing

The Korg concept looks ten times better to me than the Roland Fantom G concept, and I agree completely with Shakil.
[...]

Agreed, the fx allocation is more flexible with Korgs than with other workstations.
And it's been true since the Trinity Cool

jimknopf wrote:
[...]By the way, I do NOT believe the widespread commonplace fairy tale, that Korg sounds need more effects than other synths. After having tested the Kronos, I regard that as pure nonsense. What may be true is that many programs seem to use more effects than needed, just for the fun of it, and that causes problems whenever trying to get several of them 1:1 to other modes.

I haven't really tried out a Korg workstation since the 1st Triton, so I can't speak about the most recent Korgs. But the Triton relied heavily on its effects: with the fx turned off, its pgms and its combis sounded way duller than with the fx turned on. Back in 1999, that was the reason why I preferred a Yamaha EX5 over a Triton.
Imo the Triton is a fake Wink (btw an EX5 and a Trinity complemented very well, and the Triton also had lesser filters than the Trinity).

I hope you're right about the Kronos.

Anyway, I'll try out one as soon as I have an opportunity to do so (I'm becoming a bit impatient ; what are Korg Europe doing?).


Last edited by EXer on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chriskk
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the early days of Korg workstations, Korg heavily used effects to make their low quality samples sound good (e.g., M1, T3, 01/W). However, with high quality samples, you don't need many effects. To me, using many effects = overly processed sterile sounds.
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