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LarsVonMeyer
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 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: How Long Before Softsynths Make Keyboards Obsolete? |
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Recently brought a M3, then returned it today because it didn't even come close to Colossus for acoustic sounds. Further Native Instruments Massive absolutely destroys it for synth sounds - it just could not match the low end or the complexity of Massive.
It can only be a matter of time before software completely takes over hardware.
I think people are starting to realize that software is not only more convenient, but is now starting to sound better as well. For example, there is no keyboard that sounds as good as Reason's new synth - Thor.
As for emulating acoustic instruments, even the best keyboards are laughable, especially against some of the big 30 plus GB software samplers out there. Even a person who is half deaf will tell you that software instruments are much better at acoustic sounds.
I estimate in about 2 or 3 years time, keyboards will be as popular as analog tape. |
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rkarlberg
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 85
Location: Boston, MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: How Long Before Softsynths Make Keyboards Obsolete? |
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Well, I think Korg has already realized this trend, that's why they started designing the Oasys many years ago. It's the best of both worlds - a Softsynth hybrid.
If you're playing live, are all those software packages really that convenient?? How many 30 plus GB instruments can you have loaded at once? I find it takes too long to setup and configure a bunch of software packages, and they can crash at inopportune times.
The Oasys offers much of what you mentioned, both large samples and software modeling. As discussed in other topics, once you put together all the software you need to replace the O, you're going to spend a lot more money and not have a well integrated setup.
I do plan to check out the packages you mentioned. Many of us use certain software as a supplement. |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| LarsVonMeyer wrote: | | I think people are starting to realize that software is not only more convenient, but is now starting to sound better as well. For example, there is no keyboard that sounds as good as Reason's new synth - Thor. |
Reason 4 isn't out yet, and so no-one actually has a release version. So, I suggest that we take that comment with a couple very large grains of salt.
| LarsVonMeyer wrote: | | As for emulating acoustic instruments, even the best keyboards are laughable, especially against some of the big 30 plus GB software samplers out there. Even a person who is half deaf will tell you that software instruments are much better at acoustic sounds. |
I've had someone come into the studio with acoustic sounds from Gigasampler, and end up replacing them with the OASYS. The OASYS just sounded better, and played more expressively.
I can assure you that he was not half deaf. 
Audio quality is still an issue with most synths, hardware and software alike. The best ones are noticeably better. I'm in the game to make the best, and I think we're succeeding.
Best regards,
Dan
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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At the moment, for me, its all about who writes the software that creates the sounds that I want/need/love. At the moment that software comes from Korg, Access, Native Instruments etc. and some of it runs on its own processor and some of it runs on my G5. The quality counts more for me than where it is running.
That's my personal pref.
Daz. |
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EJ2
Approved Merchant
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 2292
Location: Port Rowan, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For example, there is no keyboard that sounds as good as Reason's new synth - Thor. |
You've got to be kidding. If the audio demos for Thor posted on Reason are any indication of the quality of sounds in this synth, they are quite lame to my ears compared with my "hardware" - OASYS, Karma, M3, V-synth XT, JD990, JD 800 et al. They don't even compare with my Legacy software either.
I think it is a matter of preferrence. I really don't like working with a mouse, a VST host, software sequencer, etc. They are such a pain to set up, get the appropriate ASIO, then you have to deal with freeze-ups or crashes of an ornery computer. None of my hardware freezes (except the OASYS when it is under tough beta testing) and that is very seldom indeed.
I have a ton of software - VSTis, recorders, sequencers, converters etc., but they rarely come into use when I have the immediacy of my hardware.
So, it's hardware all the way for me.
Cheers,
Eric
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Cheers,
Jim (aka EJ2) Karma-Lab Associate Combi Developer
CATALYST v 2 Blast of Inspiration for KRONOS & OASYS: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/catalyst2.html
CATALYST v 1 Combi Explosion for KRONOS, OASYS, M3, & K-M50: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/catalyst1.html
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:44 am Post subject: Re: How Long Before Softsynths Make Keyboards Obsolete? |
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| LarsVonMeyer wrote: | | It can only be a matter of time before software completely takes over hardware. |
There is no "software only" and there is no "hardware only"; both work together and both need each other.
To produce music using a keyboard as input you need:
-- a music keyboard
-- perfomance controllers (sliders, knobs, wheels, etc.)
-- audio interface hardware (input and output)
-- sound generating hardware/horsepower (memory, processing chips)
-- sound generating software (synths, effects, filters, etc.)
-- sequencing/song creation software
Some of the above can be accomplished better on a personal computer, while others can be accomplished better on a "specialized" computer (which could be a synth or a workstation).
| LarsVonMeyer wrote: |
I think people are starting to realize that software is not only more convenient |
Some aspects of personal computers for music are convenient, while many are totally inconvenient. "Specialized" computers (like keyboard synths and workstations) allow you to sit down and immediately start making music. Personal computers require significant maintenance, upgrades, and many times are a huge pain to work with.
| LarsVonMeyer wrote: |
but is now starting to sound better as well. For example, there is no keyboard that sounds as good as Reason's new synth - Thor. |
Given Thor has not yet been released, I certainly would not agree this is true. Products like Reason (I have Reason 3 and Project 5) are fun to use, but I certainly don't think there are the "best sounding synths".
| LarsVonMeyer wrote: |
As for emulating acoustic instruments, even the best keyboards are laughable, especially against some of the big 30 plus GB software samplers out there. Even a person who is half deaf will tell you that software instruments are much better at acoustic sounds. |
Don't get caught up in the "larger GB sampels are always better" fantasy. There are certain computer based sampler products that do sound better than keyboard equivalents but these come at a cost. Products like VSL Vienna Instruments and EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra do sound great, but you need a closet full of computers to run a full orchestra.
Products like Colossus do have some instruments that sound great, but alot of them aren't that great considering the computing horsepower required to run single instruments. I have certain extremely well programmed AKAI libraries that sound better than some of the current multi-GB libraries. With many of these libraries, there has been very little programming that has been done in them (except sampling at many velocities).
I am a big fan of GigaStudio and Kontakt based products but they certainly have their own unique set of problems in terms of playability and computing resources.
When talking about live performance, I can't think of any pro keyboardist that only relies upon personal computers. The reason is they just don't trust them from a reliability standpoint.
| LarsVonMeyer wrote: |
I estimate in about 2 or 3 years time, keyboards will be as popular as analog tape. |
I totally disagree. There are definite cost savings involved when using personal computers for making music, but there will always be a place for keyboards. |
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Pixie
Junior Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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i think i'll always be a gear slut!
and i much prefer a drum machine over software too or playing drums on my keyboards most of time.
software sounds can be cool, yes.... but i prefer hardware! |
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TagPass
Full Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I really don't like working with a mouse, a VST host, software sequencer, etc. They are such a pain to set up, get the appropriate ASIO, then you have to deal with freeze-ups or crashes of an ornery computer. None of my hardware freezes (except the OASYS when it is under tough beta testing) and that is very seldom indeed. |
Don't forget "universal" control surfaces that have to be reconfigured for every app!
There's been a lot of discussion lately about the "M3 not sounding as good as Colossus", and I'm a bit baffled by this. My JUNO-106 doesn't "sound as good" as a Virus or Massive, but I still manage to make some decent music with it, dying voice and all.
For the last 10 years I've had a hybrid setup utilizing software and hardware. A few years back I shifted to probably 90% software, but found the number of issues with configuration, polyphony, etc. to be a hindrance to actually producing music, and am now shifting back in the other direction.
I've used VSL and NI stuff extensively, and I'm finding that I'm getting absolutely equal results with the Oasys, but with a lot less "configuration". In a mix, I'm preferring the strings on the O for clarity and playability over even the VSL stuff -- and I don't have to spend so much time routing Kontakt channels and freezing tracks and all those other headaches that come with it.
In "2-3 years" computers will be more powerful and perfectly capable of playing "today's synths" and sample libraries. But let's remember that if a company like East West is building a sample library for some amazing future machine that has a terabyte of RAM, they're going to utilize every available resource for that machine. It will always be the case -- developers will develop to the highest specs. And though it would run with ease on such a machine, everybody will be complaining about how dated Massive "2007" sounds...
Speaking of Massive, I was doing a side-by-side comparison of it and AL-1, and, for *my purposes* I prefer the AL-1... especially since playing ONE voice doesn't spike the host CPU as it does on some (many) of the patches in Massive.
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andries
Full Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For example, there is no keyboard that sounds as good as Reason's new synth - Thor. |
yes, and yesterday I saw a UFO with George W. on board bringing him to Mars.
but you're right on one thing: colossus is a great lib.
Last edited by andries on Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kontrol49
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 1280
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I estimate in about 2 or 3 years time, keyboards will be as popular as analog tape |
What other instrument besides the Human Voice has defined Music evolution in genres more than the Synthesizer??
the first instruments were in their begginings around the mid 50s,with the first real electronic instrument being made in the 1920s(Theremin)synths are everywhere now,and a stable part of any Music computers are everywhere but not everyone uses them for Music,what else do people use there synths for!!!the computer has just altered the need for big black boxes with circuitry
the Musicians union said that Synthesizers would put traditional Musicians out of Business,well they may replace the need for an orchestra but there are still plenty of Orchestras still actively working,in 2 or 3 years time people will still need and want and use Hardware,not every Musician wants to sit in front of a computer and create music in a sterile way
Computers may replace the black box of a synth,but not everyone will want one or use one for Music,the same as some people prefer a real Violin as opposed to a synthesized one,yet I have all the samples of a real Violin,so that means in your ideology,Violins will be non existent in years to come... 
| Quote: | | It can only be a matter of time before software completely takes over hardware. |
I seem to recall that sort of statement at the beggining of the 80s with midi...some 27 years later there is yet to be a more stable and structured system that would replace it,yet its a Hardware based interface but still software hasn't taken that system away and found a better way of interacting,Firewire maybe but theres still the Hardware interface or physical cable
The Software fashion has never took over and will never take over the Hardware,without the hardware interface Software doesn't exist,you can utilise software without the hardware form,evne if you only Use a PC to create Music ,you still need the Mouse and Keyboard to interact with it
You can get rid of the chassis of a Synth but you still need some form of physicality to manipulate it
Software may be on Par with hardware soundwise in some cases(I beg to differ),but its too unpredictable convenient???? yeh..How Many times has your PC crashed???I bet you can count it on the amount of Keys on a Synth,Ilost count the amount of times I have had to reboot my PC from bugs,Never had any issues with a hardware Workstation,and thats why many people stick to a hardware based system
As for the no Keyboard sounds as Good as thor statement.....Check your ears man!!!You returned an M3 for a piece of software???that understandable if you think it sound no better,I certainly wouldn't return my Oasys for some samples on a software device
You sound like the new breed of Musician,who had a PC at home got some software and learnt all the basics on that system,only to find the hardware angle interguing but never got on with it,so took back to your software virtual world
Software comes and goes,Hardware comes and goes,whether you use one system or another or a combination of both is a matter of choice the fact is neither can exist without the Other,your still gonna need a micropprocessor in a synth whether its hardware or the core of a PC
until there have been some radical revolution to technology,whereby man can interact with his psychic thoughts and interact with a software tool to portray those ideas without the need to play them you won't get away from Hardware
You can remove the external elements but you can't take away the physicality of an instrument be it from buttons,a keyboard or a Mouse
You can combine My M1 into a software device or my wavestation into a VST,it doesn't ease my composiitonal aspects or change peoples way of thinking about Music it just reduces my Studio workspace area
But either way,you can't interact with the software in the same way
You have 10 fingers,but prefer to work like a cripple using one finger to click a mouse...No thanks
| Quote: | | As for emulating acoustic instruments, even the best keyboards are laughable, especially against some of the big 30 plus GB software samplers out there. Even a person who is half deaf will tell you that software instruments are much better at acoustic sounds. |
That statement is contradictory,you see the element to anything emulating a stringed instrument is that unless its actually utilised by plucking mechanisms it will never actually be a perfect emulation,so the synth is no more closer to emualting a stringed instrument than a software sampler,the samples are still a sound of a guitar or harp,but its not a Harp or Guitar,it gives the idea of a guitar or harp nothing more,all romplers are software based,the only difference is the samples are placed within a chip not a Hard drive
So what is the difference between a rompler Synth and a software sampler?????
I'll tell you..The casing
Import those wav files or samples opf acoustic instruments into a hardware sampler.......Tell me the difference????
You can play the Hardware more emotionally
The Hardware sampler has only gone out of fashion because of Computers having larger physical hard drive space to recall samples direct from disk,with no loading times,thats all,those samples of acoustic instruments or strings are just based on a hard drive not a chip,the sample rate may have been changed to accomodate better bit depths,but a sample of a Guitar is still the same sample on a rompler or a software sampler
Last edited by Kontrol49 on Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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RiotNrrd
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2002
Posts: 1853
Location: Portland Oregon Metro Area
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hardware synths will never go out of style for those who like them. Since there will always be people who like them, they will continue to be played.
Software synths will advance along with advances in computer hardware and software, and there will come a time when sound-wise there is no difference. But since hardware synths ARE software synths in specialized cases, I don't think the top-o'-the-line softsynth will ever surpass the top-o'-the-line hardware synth. But, the reverse will also be true.
Who cares which is "better"? Better for what? I personally prefer softsynths because I find them enormously more convenient than hardware synths in my own personal situation. Others will find that to be true of hardware synths. What difference does it make? People who like software will use software, people who like hardware will use hardware. As long as they're all making music, who cares where it came from? |
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tonecre8
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Every time I see a "death to hardware" thread I chuckle . Why did you all even respond to this non sense . The OP will obviously not return to read them and why he even registered just to down a wonderful instrument is signs of a troll  ... That said...
Check out Ryan Leslie on what appears to be an M3??!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd4h8xSKpCg |
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silverdragonsound
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 512
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I use Colossus as well and its a great bread and butter program with many great sounds. However my Oasys has many sounds which I prefer over Colossus or any other of the many software titles I have in my arsenal. I think the smart musicians realize the value in both and uses them bopth to make their music sound as good as possible. I've also learned the skill level of the person using the software or hardware is the greatest indicator of how good anyone will sound.
I recently listened to many Reason 4 demos and a few tunes from someone who has on KC who has a beta copy or whatever they use to test the program. I have to say nothing blew me away to where I said that is the best I've ever heard. I've heard better sounds on other software program and hardware as well.
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Francois
Approved Merchant
Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 4854
Location: Northants - UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Re: How Long Before Softsynths Make Keyboards Obsolete? |
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| LarsVonMeyer wrote: | | I estimate in about 2 or 3 years time, keyboards will be as popular as analog tape. |
Non-sense.
What will happen is that both hardware keyboard and softsynth will converge. The Oasys integrates Korg know-how on a classic PC platform, the Receptor plays softsynth on a hardware platform, the Origin does the same with Arturia's softsynth know-how, the Virus Ti integrates with a DAW...
Secondly, what's wrong with using both hardware and software ? Not to mention that software can cost a mint since you need a computer to run all your software. If you add that cost to purchasing something like Komplete, the price argument is no longer compelling.
Finally, such a sterile discussion is as naff as PC/Mac, Ferrari/Porsche...
Grow up.
Last edited by Francois on Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Diego
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 2882
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: How Long Before Softsynths Make Keyboards Obsolete? |
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| Francois wrote: | | Ferrarri/Porsche... |
Well, no doubt about the winner...
I just say its name starts with "F"...and ends with "errari" 
I know it's just my italian pride speaking!
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Diego http://www.myspace.com/diegoinmusic
Korg M3 with EXB Radias & EXB-256 onboard
MOTU Traveler - iBook G4 |
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