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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | By the way? Bpoodoo? How many rhytms variations can you have in the Kronos using Karma? Or in The nautilus using the arp? And did you ever look at the Montage…. You can have 8 variations of rhytms.. |
I have looked into doing the same kind of thing on Montage/MODX... it's not the same as what Roland does. While playing a Rhythm Pattern on the Roland, you can keep selecting new tones to play... not just ones already part of the current Scene, but you can even bring in new/different sounds, as you play, "without missing a beat" so to speak. You can select from all the tones in the board. On the Montage, If you try to change a sound within a Performance while the drums are running, the drums may glitch. So you can really only select from the 8 sounds (Parts) in the Performance (or you can select from 15, if you never need to play more than one at a time).
Also, the Roland comes with a whole bunch of common beats, with intro, verse, fill, variations, and ending already programmed in, clearly selectable from the labelled on-screen buttons. I don't think Montage comes with drum patterns already set up with those things, nor with any buttons clearly labeled for that purpose (whether physical buttons or on-screen buttons).
I don't know how Kronos Karma or Nautilus Arps compare to either the Roland or Yamaha implementations described here. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | | By the way? Bpoodoo? How many rhytms variations can you have in the Kronos using Karma? Or in The nautilus using the arp? And did you ever look at the Montage…. You can have 8 variations of rhytms.. |
I have looked into doing the same kind of thing on Montage/MODX... it's not the same as what Roland does. While playing a Rhythm Pattern on the Roland, you can keep selecting new tones to play... not just ones already part of the current Scene, but you can even bring in new/different sounds, as you play, "without missing a beat" so to speak. You can select from all the tones in the board. On the Montage, If you try to change a sound within a Performance while the drums are running, the drums may glitch. So you can really only select from the 8 sounds (Parts) in the Performance (or you can select from 15, if you never need to play more than one at a time).
Also, the Roland comes with a whole bunch of common beats, with intro, verse, fill, variations, and ending already programmed in, clearly selectable from the labelled on-screen buttons. I don't think Montage comes with drum patterns already set up with those things, nor with any buttons clearly labeled for that purpose (whether physical buttons or on-screen buttons).
I don't know how Kronos Karma or Nautilus Arps compare to either the Roland or Yamaha implementations described here. |
I was just talking rhytms..
By the way, fantom also allows you to use the sequencer for rhytm loops..
The only thing where fantom lacks is sample ram size and arpeggiator (there is only 1 for 16 tracks)
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | Its just drums, nothing more.. it has nothing to do with arranger Rhytms..
Bpoodoo obviously has no clue about arranger rhytms..which are complete backings with 8 or more tracks from which there are only 2 drums/percussion. |
Maybe it's an issue of semantics/terminology, but to me, rhythm parts are drums/percussion. The other 6+ tracks you're talking about are accompaniment, not rhythms. Those tracks are often referred to as auto-accompaniment, not auto-rhythms. If a keyboard's description said it had rhythms, I would not assume it had full accompaniment, all it tells me for sure is that it has drums. |
You don’t have to tel me.. how arrangers work
All i said the Fantom comes no way even close to an arranger…
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
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bpoodoo
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Posts: 429
Location: Ding Dong, TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | Bpoodoo obviously has no clue about arranger rhytms..which are complete backings with 8 or more tracks from which there are only 2 drums/percussion...maybe you also have not realy a clue about Workstation Rhytms either. To me his comments make no sense? |
Wow, somebody's fussy.
I'm referring specifically to the rhythm pattern group defined by Roland which contains up to 6 rhythm patterns labeled with arranger terminology Intro, Verse 1, Fill-In 1, Verse 2, Fill-In 2, and Ending.
I know of no other workstations/synthesizers currently on the market (other than FA, Fantom, Fantom-0) where you can select one top-level rhythm pattern group and have available multiple variations of that pattern, labeled as above, which work well together as a coherent set for song construction and/or live performance - I mean explicitly, implemented as a built-in feature with hierarchical / associative data structure - not as in "it can be done manually" (e.g. using Song Templates, Favorites/Arp/Program/Part switching, Scenes, RPPR, etc.).
A precedent for this grouped variation in rhythm patterns in a workstation actually goes back at least to the Fantom FA-76 from 20 years ago. It provided up to 12 variations (e.g. Fill 1, Fill 2, etc.) mapped to an octave of keys - similar to RPPR but with a standardized mapping. The factory preload contained 50 of these "rhythm pattern styles."
I can't find anything in the Fantom-0 documentation that states how many rhythm pattern groups are included in the factory preload data.
Thanks Scott for the good info on the Montage/MODX rhythm pattern implementation:
| Scott wrote: |
I have looked into doing the same kind of thing on Montage/MODX... it's not the same as what Roland does. While playing a Rhythm Pattern on the Roland, you can keep selecting new tones to play... not just ones already part of the current Scene, but you can even bring in new/different sounds, as you play, "without missing a beat" so to speak. You can select from all the tones in the board. On the Montage, If you try to change a sound within a Performance while the drums are running, the drums may glitch. So you can really only select from the 8 sounds (Parts) in the Performance (or you can select from 15, if you never need to play more than one at a time).
Also, the Roland comes with a whole bunch of common beats, with intro, verse, fill, variations, and ending already programmed in, clearly selectable from the labelled on-screen buttons. I don't think Montage comes with drum patterns already set up with those things, nor with any buttons clearly labeled for that purpose (whether physical buttons or on-screen buttons).
I don't know how Kronos Karma or Nautilus Arps compare to either the Roland or Yamaha implementations described here. |
_________________
bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves." |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | | By the way? Bpoodoo? How many rhytms variations can you have in the Kronos using Karma? Or in The nautilus using the arp? And did you ever look at the Montage…. You can have 8 variations of rhytms.. |
I have looked into doing the same kind of thing on Montage/MODX... it's not the same as what Roland does. While playing a Rhythm Pattern on the Roland, you can keep selecting new tones to play... not just ones already part of the current Scene, but you can even bring in new/different sounds, as you play, "without missing a beat" so to speak. You can select from all the tones in the board. On the Montage, If you try to change a sound within a Performance while the drums are running, the drums may glitch. So you can really only select from the 8 sounds (Parts) in the Performance (or you can select from 15, if you never need to play more than one at a time).
Also, the Roland comes with a whole bunch of common beats, with intro, verse, fill, variations, and ending already programmed in, clearly selectable from the labelled on-screen buttons. I don't think Montage comes with drum patterns already set up with those things, nor with any buttons clearly labeled for that purpose (whether physical buttons or on-screen buttons).
I don't know how Kronos Karma or Nautilus Arps compare to either the Roland or Yamaha implementations described here. |
I was just talking rhytms.. |
But what's the point of rhythms if you're not going to play something over them? So the amount of flexibility you have in what you can play over the rhythms can be a relevant distinction between the boards. Similarly, if you don't want the same rhythm from beginning to end, the availability of pre-assembled and easily selectable intros. variations, fills, and ends are relevant to the discussion of the differing rhythm capabilities of these boards. | Bachus wrote: | | Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | Its just drums, nothing more.. it has nothing to do with arranger Rhytms..
Bpoodoo obviously has no clue about arranger rhytms..which are complete backings with 8 or more tracks from which there are only 2 drums/percussion. |
Maybe it's an issue of semantics/terminology, but to me, rhythm parts are drums/percussion. The other 6+ tracks you're talking about are accompaniment, not rhythms. Those tracks are often referred to as auto-accompaniment, not auto-rhythms. If a keyboard's description said it had rhythms, I would not assume it had full accompaniment, all it tells me for sure is that it has drums. |
You don’t have to tel me.. how arrangers work
All i said the Fantom comes no way even close to an arranger… |
I agree, Fantom isn't an arranger. My point was, you're saying "Bpoodoo obviously has no clue about arranger rhytms" but then go on to say that arranger rhythms "are complete backings with 8 or more tracks from which there are only 2 drums/percussion"... but the thing with "8 or more tracks from which there are only 2 drums/percussion" would be called an accompaniment, not a rhythm. Only the drums/percussion tracks would be the rhythm. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well, its extremely easy to turn kronos, montage or Fantom into an arranger..
Just add a ketron arranger module (sd40 or preferably sd90). And you are hot to go…. And there are even rumors ove the pa5x also comming as an arranger..
I think in 10 years people will have replaced their Fantom because its all about sounds, while many still own their kronos, for the single reason of Karma being unique and phasing out with the Kronos..
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Someone may find this interesting "VArranger."
https://www.varranger.com/
Basically it's a soft synth Arranger. You can run it standalone with it's own sound library, or pair it with an arranger, synth or sound module. €350 euro is not too bad for software that can read such a wide range of formats.
Regards
Sharp.
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | Someone may find this interesting "VArranger."
https://www.varranger.com/
Basically it's a soft synth Arranger. You can run it standalone with it's own sound library, or pair it with an arranger, synth or sound module. €350 euro is not too bad for software that can read such a wide range of formats.
Regards
Sharp. |
Tried it for some time, but still falls short on the main totl arrangers out there..
The only solution that works is using a ketron sd90 with a fantom and/or kronos.. todays ketron Arranger modules are top of the line… and very very flexible..
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | I think in 10 years people will have replaced their Fantom because its all about sounds, while many still own their kronos, for the single reason of Karma being unique and phasing out with the Kronos.. |
Though also, I'd say Fantom isn't all about the sounds, it's also arguably currently the best MIDI controller available for your software instruments. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | | I think in 10 years people will have replaced their Fantom because its all about sounds, while many still own their kronos, for the single reason of Karma being unique and phasing out with the Kronos.. |
Though also, I'd say Fantom isn't all about the sounds, it's also arguably currently the best MIDI controller available for your software instruments. |
Thats true…. But whenever Roland stops updating the drivers… that part will no longer work..
And so far Roland is notorious for their bad longterm driver support.
Next to, support is only for logic, mainstage and live..
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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bpoodoo
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Posts: 429
Location: Ding Dong, TX
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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A few months ago I connected my Triton Extreme MIDI OUT to my 35-year old Roland MT-32 MIDI IN with my 35-year old 5-pin DIN MIDI cable. The Triton worked great as a MIDI controller. Simple. No drivers required. O how I missed you, Fantasy, Atmosphere, and Echo Pan! Sometimes the old ways are better - and simpler.
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bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves." |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | Scott wrote: | | Though also, I'd say Fantom isn't all about the sounds, it's also arguably currently the best MIDI controller available for your software instruments. |
Thats true…. But whenever Roland stops updating the drivers… that part will no longer work..
And so far Roland is notorious for their bad longterm driver support. |
No driver needed to use it as a MIDI controller. You need the driver to do audio over USB. For 5-pin MIDI--or MIDI-only USB--no driver is required, it will work fine as a controller, indefinitely.
Except maybe for the specific DAW integration with Ableton and Logic/Mainstage. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | | Scott wrote: | | Though also, I'd say Fantom isn't all about the sounds, it's also arguably currently the best MIDI controller available for your software instruments. |
Thats true…. But whenever Roland stops updating the drivers… that part will no longer work..
And so far Roland is notorious for their bad longterm driver support. |
No driver needed to use it as a MIDI controller. You need the driver to do audio over USB. For 5-pin MIDI--or MIDI-only USB--no driver is required, it will work fine as a controller, indefinitely.
Except maybe for the specific DAW integration with Ableton and Logic/Mainstage. |
But then you quoted the daw integration specifically?
But i guess we better move the discussion back to Fantom 0..
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | Scott wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | | Scott wrote: | | Though also, I'd say Fantom isn't all about the sounds, it's also arguably currently the best MIDI controller available for your software instruments. |
Thats true…. But whenever Roland stops updating the drivers… that part will no longer work..
And so far Roland is notorious for their bad longterm driver support. |
No driver needed to use it as a MIDI controller. You need the driver to do audio over USB. For 5-pin MIDI--or MIDI-only USB--no driver is required, it will work fine as a controller, indefinitely.
Except maybe for the specific DAW integration with Ableton and Logic/Mainstage. |
But then you quoted the daw integration specifically? |
I don't understand your point. Let me try again:
1) Apart from maybe its DAW integration with Ableton and Logic/Mainstage, Fantom is and will indefinitely remain one of the best controllers for software instruments. (The DAW integration may require updated drivers at some point, and those may or may not come.)
2) Controlling software instruments does not require DAW integration. You can control them standalone, or via apps like Gig Performer, Camelot Pro, Cantabile, or Keystage. (No drivers needed.)
3) Even if you use DAWs, tons of people don't use Ableton or Logic/Mainstage, making dedicated/integrated support for those particular DAWs a non-issue for them anyway. Fantom would still be an excellent controller for their software instruments.
4) Even if you use Ableton or Logic/Mainstage, there is no OTHER keyboard you can buy today which is more assured of working with them with dedicated/integrated support ten years from now than the Fantom is.
ETA: And really, having nothing to do with drivers, I wouldn't count on ANY board today integrating with ANY daw people will be using 10 years from now. Heck, I wouldn't count on Ableton or Logic still being relevant 10 years from now, who knows? That said, if a Fantom user wants to keep an old system around to run his old Ableton or whatever, that should work indefinitely as well.
Bottom line: DAW integration and controlling software instruments are two different (but often related) tasks. |
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