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pa4x_user Senior Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2016 Posts: 419 Location: Maroochydore Qld
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Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:14 pm Post subject: Using styles with a live band |
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I may be setting up a small band next year, and would love to learn how others integrate the use of styles with live players.
The band would include a bass player (so I guess that is handled by just muting bass in the style). There will not be a live drummer so will be using style drum tracks.
When I have played my Pa4X with styles for singing groups, I have noticed that I need to increase the volume on the drum track louder than I would like so they keep beat. The singers keep beat, but then the musical balance is often too heavy with percussion.
With a live band, I presume this is handled by running a click track - is there a way to do this with wireless earpieces, and how do you set them up?
All tips, good and bad experiences, would be appreciated.
Phil _________________ Korg Pa4X (OS NEXT 3.1.0)
Bose L1M2 speaker system
Yamaha BT midi interface
Songbook+ app for iPad
Cubase12 Pro DAW software
Dorico Elements 4.2 scoring software
Band-in-a-Box 2022
Yamaha CVP-309GP |
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patpsc Full Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 167
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I wanted to do the same thing like you but in my case, I only need the accompaniment tracks as I will have a live drummer and a bassist. I haven't try this out yet with a live practice, but my way to set this up is to route the PA4X's metronome to OUTPUT 1 (separate from the Main Out L+R)and use it as a click track for everyone to follow. I've replaced the metronome sounds of the PA4X with Ableton Live's click so it sounds like a DAW.
In your case, since you don't use a live drummer, you probably don't need the click track because everyone can follow the style's drum track. If you want to do the wireless in-ear-monitor (IEM), the traditional setup is kinda expensive depending on what brand you buy. I'm currently testing out the new technology doing an IEM for my band members using a digital mixer, a router, and Soundcaster Audio Fusion App to run the monitor in WiFi, and using the iPhone as the receiver pack. The cost is that you have to pay $100 per band member who need the IEM.
If someone else have another setup, I would like learn and test it out too.
Patrick |
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Korghelper Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 584
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Getting live band players to play well with an arranger is an uphill task…
For starters, no arranger has really good separate outputs that include the effects, so that rules out feeding the drums hotter than they should be to the monitor mix. Mind you, I have to confess, 90% of all arranger user demos I have heard have the drums too quiet (in fact most of the accompaniment Parts!) so perhaps you are overreacting to them wanting more rhythm?
The only way to test is live recording, both from the mixer and from the room.
But true enough, virtually no arranger’s drums are as clear and present on stage as a drummer, no matter how quiet he’s trying to play! It’s quite an adjustment for live band musicians to squeeze their dynamics down to the extremely limited range an arranger has.
Then there’s the question of dynamics… Let’s be honest. How many of us shade the drum track up or down a bit during a song with an expression pedal or the faders? Darn few, probably. But live musicians are used to a drummer that will back off a bit if they do, or dig in a bit if they do. It’s easy as a solo act to get used to the compressed dynamic range of an arranger keyboard, but live band players may take quite a while to get used to it. Constant recording of rehearsal and gigs may be the only way to show them when they get different from the arranger’s dynamics. It’s a bitter pill for many to swallow (especially guitar players!).
In ears can help, but they aren’t always good if you can’t really do anything about the drums/keyboard parts balance. You’ll get a lot of ‘But the keyboard parts are too loud!’ which they aren’t, but most live musicians tend to run the keyboards a bit light on stage to concentrate on the drums and singing. They aren’t used to hearing the front of house mix…
There ARE musicians that can adapt to tracks, but IMHO they are rare. Especially ones that can adapt to a reference mix that can’t be adjusted from the FOH mix. Life is a lot easier using audio tracks rather than the arranger itself, as those can be kept multitrack so each musician gets the monitor mix they want. You can always prepare them from style play yourself, but of course, yes, you do lose the improvisational nature of arrangers…
Mind you, there are a bunch of multitrack audio players that allow you to put in Markets and rearrange the song structure on the fly. That gets you back a fair bit of live flexibility.
It’s a shame that the additional outputs of all arrangers that have them always have no effects. Until then, live play with an arranger mostly depends on how willing the musicians are to adapt to the different dynamic range and mix. After all, we all did when we moved from playing in live bands…
Find ones that CAN change how the play well to the arranger, you’re gold. But IMHO, the ones that can are rare… |
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Bernie9 Senior Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 Posts: 487 Location: Port Charlotte,FL
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I tried everything to get my 6 pc seniors dance band to follow my accompaniment, but failed. I even bought a 6 unit headphone amp and earphones for a click track, to make sure everyone was getting a feed. It is indeed an uphill battle. The biggest problem was that they couldn't or wouldn't follow a strict tempo, causing obvious problems. It is too bad because we could have had a superior sound that could be adjusted to the players present, by muting any of my keyboard instruments. In the end, it was the live drummer's ability to control temp fluctuations that won out, even as a mediocre one, _________________ pa4x
Audya 76
Yamaha SX900
Hammond SK1 |
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karmathanever Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Posts: 10400
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Wow - that's a major challenge Bernie - you have really ended up with your group dictating the varying tempo - I feel for your drummer (must be a really tolerant chap).
Take care
Pete _________________ PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
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Bernie9 Senior Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 Posts: 487 Location: Port Charlotte,FL
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Ha ha, Pete, you don't know the half of it. I took over this group of senior volunteers in an attempt to make them a more cohesive group. It is true that these old big band vets had hearing problems, and were all over the place, but,
one trumpet player would play by ear, songs he had played for years, with no regard to where the rest of the band was. To make matters worse, the piano player and drummer would follow the rise and fall of the tempo. I was on the keyboard banging out the proper cadence, unnoticed by some. To be fair, this band numbered about thirty in the sixties, and were very good, but father time had his way, and the conductor and top players died off. Introducing my automatic accompaniment was a last ditch effort. _________________ pa4x
Audya 76
Yamaha SX900
Hammond SK1 |
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pa4x_user Senior Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2016 Posts: 419 Location: Maroochydore Qld
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Thanks all for your comments and tips - a lot to experiment with. _________________ Korg Pa4X (OS NEXT 3.1.0)
Bose L1M2 speaker system
Yamaha BT midi interface
Songbook+ app for iPad
Cubase12 Pro DAW software
Dorico Elements 4.2 scoring software
Band-in-a-Box 2022
Yamaha CVP-309GP |
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Sam CA Platinum Member
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 3990 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Using styles with a live band |
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pa4x_user wrote: | I may be setting up a small band next year, and would love to learn how others integrate the use of styles with live players.
...
Phil |
Hey Phil,
I did that a few times long time ago with a 5 piece band ...including a drummer with a pretty big acoustic kit. The only person who needed the click track was the drummer anyway, so no one else needed an extra feed from the keyboard.
I sent the click to 'OUT 1' ...and from there to drummer's headphone mix. He could control the volume on his end, so I didn't have to do anything else. No one even questioned the process or asked for own click feed. They just followed the drummer as they would without a click track.
I didn't have much time to see if there was a better way for muting tracks, but since I didn't want to work on individual styles, I went to Global and sent all tracks that I did not want in the mix (Such as Drum/Percussion) to 'OUT 2'. That output wasn't connected to anything, so you could only hear tracks that were set to the Main L and R. _________________ Sam
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Korghelper Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 584
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Sam, the only problem with doing that, is that those sounds set to the auxiliary output are still using voices. So you are chewing up your polyphony for no reason…
I think, on the whole, if you don’t have a collection of musicians that can play tightly together even without a click and other parts, there is no way in HELL you are going to get them to play well once you add in the other stuff…!
Nowadays, an awful lot more younger drummers are more used to playing to a click, however unpleasant it may be. But much older musicians, probably closer to the age that most of us are at now (!) have a little experience playing to a click in a live situation. Sure, they might practice at home with one but if you grew up playing in the 60s and 70s and 80s, if you played live, as the drummer you dictated the tempo not some machine. It can be a very difficult thing to get used to.
But tempo is only one aspect of the struggle…. As I said earlier, not only do you have to learn to play metronomically correctly, but you also have to make huge adjustments to your dynamics to fit in with the limited range an arranger puts out. It really is a complete readjustment as a musician.
You only have to listen to so many user arranger demos to see that even we arranger players have trouble not rushing or overpowering our backing, and we have had YEARS to try and get used to it! |
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Sam CA Platinum Member
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 3990 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Korghelper wrote: | Sam, the only problem with doing that, is that those sounds set to the auxiliary output are still using voices. So you are chewing up your polyphony for no reason…
I think, on the whole, if you don’t have a collection of musicians that can play tightly together even without a click and other parts, there is no way in HELL you are going to get them to play well once you add in the other stuff…!
Nowadays, an awful lot more younger drummers are more used to playing to a click, however unpleasant it may be. But much older musicians, probably closer to the age that most of us are at now (!) have a little experience playing to a click in a live situation. Sure, they might practice at home with one but if you grew up playing in the 60s and 70s and 80s, if you played live, as the drummer you dictated the tempo not some machine. It can be a very difficult thing to get used to.
But tempo is only one aspect of the struggle…. As I said earlier, not only do you have to learn to play metronomically correctly, but you also have to make huge adjustments to your dynamics to fit in with the limited range an arranger puts out. It really is a complete readjustment as a musician.
You only have to listen to so many user arranger demos to see that even we arranger players have trouble not rushing or overpowering our backing, and we have had YEARS to try and get used to it! |
Of course, I was only talking about my personal experience, but I totally understand your point. I was playing with experienced musicians who could actually play in time with or without a click. They could care less if drummer was using a click as a reference, so it just worked.
Polyphony has never been an issue. I've always had a 2nd keyboard or a sound module with me anyway. After almost 2 years, I did the same thing just 2 weeks ago. No problem at all. This time, we had some keyboard/drum or guitar/drum solos in between songs and medleys where there's no need for a click. Right before transition to style, I would send a few bars (click only) to the drummer, to remind him of the exact tempo that we're about to transition to...and it worked out perfectly without any rehearsals. I just had to remember to turn OFF that 'memory' button or whatever momentarily, so style tracks wouldn't play during those (click-only) transitions and then turn it back ON. Other than that, it's so easy to do.
If the band can not follow a strict tempo, none of this would work obviously. That is an entirely different issue. _________________ Sam
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Korghelper Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 584
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Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Sam, most of my post was more aimed at Bernie’s troubles.
If you play with a band enough, it’s maybe worth turning OFF the extra Parts on your band’s rehearsed songs and saving to a Songbook entry that you can label as Live Band or whatever, but I can see it’s maybe not worth the bother if it’s just an occasional thing. |
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